Hi folks, someone of you regular members has quite a long time ago given a link to an excellent article. I don't remember the name and I can't find it anymore. I do remember though that this article had also a link to a topic where the author describes, that sometimes pos. reinforcement suddenly doesn't work any more, although it used to work for quite a while. I had then no time to read it thoroughly and would like to do it now.

Does anyone of you still has this in mind? I think it was about naturally competing motivators like smells and such things and how to make them non-competent, but yet to use them in order to create a win-win situation for dog and handler. I know this is not explained exactly enough at all, but may be it will give to some bright head a keyword.

The whole thing had a strange name, I think it was something with "boot leg...???" And the author (again not sure) might be an Elein ...... ???

Would be great if someone had a better memory than I.

Is this it? I don't remember the link you are describing, but I did a Google search using the terms "dog training competing motivators Eileen," and her website came up. A search of the site index brought up this article with the word "bootleg" in it, so I'm thinking this must be the one you are looking for.

https://eileenanddogs.com/2015/03/06/bootleg-reinforcement/

Wow, you're quick! Thanks so much Cheri. Yes, I think it must be that one .I looked under her name and of course Elein was wrong. It is Eileen. Hope I'll be able to follow and get all this.

I found it. Yes it is exactly what I was looking for. Super!
This gave me the final certainty: "It means that this particular reinforcement is what is messing up our plans and behavioral interventions. Something else is competing with–and winning against–our training plan." Thanks again. Now I'll go and start reading it.

Glad I could help. I'm used to doing a lot of Google research in my job. The funny thing is, when I did the search using the parameters I described, the very first thing that came up was a Leerburg article by Ed. The link to Eileen's page was the fourth site, I believe.

Agree 100% about cause and correcting the issue.

Nothing about the behavior was serious as in the comment ""like knocking grandmaw down" so working to find a non physical correction should be the way to go.

That being said I think to many believe there is "never" a need for a correction physical or whatever that makes the dog stop in its tracks.

For many dogs that may be a physical correction or just a harsh word based on the temperament of the dog.

Both can be effective.

Oh, darn! When I saw this on the forum list, I thought for sure we had a tracking problem discussion firing up...

 Quote: Duane Hull

Oh, darn! When I saw this on the forum list, I thought for sure we had a tracking problem discussion firing up...

That crossed my mind for a second, too, or else the AKC Utility class.

Well, fire one up! :-)

Thanks again, Cheri. I've gone the same path like you now. Just to train myself better in Google reasearches. Normally I give in some keywords too, but this time I thought the name would result in some hits or in case it was only similar to the correct name Google would suggest it. Nothing, lol.

And no tracking discussion firing up, Duane and Connie!

Only this:

I love Eileens article, though it is full of further interesting links and I will break up for the moment, for if not I'll go on reading instead of training/playing with my dogs,

Yes, Bob, I'm also convinced, that we cannot exclude corrections completely. I have had difficulties with physical corrections but I've learned it to a certain extend if really necessary. Means, if I'm very sure the dog knows exactly what is heavily undesired. Nevertheless I try to avoid them if possible. I too prefer "neg. punishment". Actually I don't like those scientific behavior expressions. I have no problems with them, as I've studied psychology, but for people who come from an other direction they lead easily to misunderstandings, as in everyday life they are used differently. Also the word punishment I don't like, because everyone understands it in another way.

"Correction" I find much better. It points to a more thorough measure. Also the "neg. punishment", withdrawal of an anticipated reward can be very effective.

I like Eileen's concept of "antecepent arrangements", where we let the dog for a while have what he wants (really undesired behaviors excluded). If I allow them them to sniff for example, as she describes, they are then much more willing to do what I want.

Would appreciate a lot to hear about the experiences of you four with this and of course also from other members.