My dogs know the"Place!" quite well. I have two beds on the veranda. I can stand where I want and they choose the bed I'm looking at. I can also change the spots where I put the beds. There stay is very good, though I still have to work with more higher-level distractions.

I have two other beds on the other side of the house, which can't be seen from the veranda.
My questions:
1. Does it make sense to try to send them to one of those beds, which they can't see? Difficult to check without another person.

2. Would I have to teach them a name for each bed? Sounds quite complicated.

An efficient way to teach it to your dog will be to break it down to smaller pieces and then bring everything together toward the end to form the behavior you're looking for(assuming that you know "marker" training)


STEP 1:
Since your dog already knows the command "place" what you can do is now to leave the veranda area and go near to the other room where the other bed is.


STEP 2:
- Teach the dog to go inside that room on command (don't worry about the dog going to his bed yet at this stage, in fact just remove it initially for this )

- Then once the dog master that stage, reintroduce his bed in that room and now progress the execices to only marking once the dog got to the room and place himself in the bed ( please note that you have to initially "chain" both commands through marker training to make it easy for your dog to understand what you want, and very soon, your dog will start anticipating by placing himself on his bed when you send him to the room, once you constantly start seeing that, stop giving the place command and only mark him when with the "room command" he completes the exercise by placing himself in his bed instead of just stopping by entering the room )


STEP 3:
- once your dog master STEP2, start increasing the distance! for instance, if you started initially by standing in front of the room's door, increase the distance gradually to the point you can be able to send your dog to that room from your veranda.


STEP 4:
- once your dog master STEP3, now from your veranda you can either send him to the bed he sees with the command "place", or to the bed, he doesn't see on the other room with the command room.


I hope this helps

Start within sight of the "new" spot for the beds and gradually add distance. Shorten up the distance when you first start going out of sight. Short and to the point!

Thank you both, Paul and Bob. Yes increasing distance gradually will be a very important part. Most difficult when going out of sight. I guess, this will take quite a lot of time.

Yes, I am familiar with marker training including chaining and splitting. I use this often for other exercises. I will again repeat all the steps you recommend, Paul, in order to make all this rock solid.

What refers to the "place" they already go to the beds on the other side of the house with some distance, but not yet when I can't look at the particular bed.

What you haven't answered is the question about naming the beds. You don't need to give an exact description. I think I'd know how to do it, but it would probably be a huge work. I'd be interested if you think it is worth it and if you yourself do this with your dogs.
Lots of thanks from a huge distance!

Naming the bed will not be necessary to accomplish the same thing.
The thing is, with the command "room"(or any other command you will choose) the dog already knows that he needs to go to the other bed and not the veranda ones.

The other thing that helped when I started introducing distance with my GF's mom French bulldog is to sometimes use a mirror on the opposite side of the door that allowed me to see if the dog completed the exercise once inside the room while I remain out of sight.

Once the dog master that, then you can introduce an assistant, somebody that will be in the proximity of the room (where he/she can see the mirror) and mark the dog once he completes the exercise because you eventually get to the point where sometimes you will be just too far away to see by yourself.

It goes without saying that you might want to use a clicker for quite obvious reasons instead of marking with "yes" or "ok" for this exercise!
the assistant will mark with a clicker but treats and praise should always come from you(the assistant should be neutral and never interact with the dog when marking with the clicker! perhaps you might want to work on that first before introducing this person to your training sessions )

Well, my dogs are outdoor dogs, not allowed in the house (allergie of hubby) and in the open garage, where the other beds are, is no space at the walls to put a mirror. Though we have a yardkeeper, who is very familiar with the dogs,, but never feeds them. So I could very well give him the task to give the release mark, which is for me "ok". Frankly, it is not obvious for me, why it would be better to mark with the clicker.

The dogs know the click too, but I later on chose a verbal marker, because I only give raw food which makes my hands slippery and the clicker too. For this my timing became unprecise. The yardkeeper of course could use the clicker as he doesn't feed. But the problem would be that I could not hear the click once I increase the distance a lot.

But thanks for the advice, Paul. I can try like you propose until the dogs have captured the command from further away. Even then my helper could call me for delivering the treats. I don't think the waiting time would be anything negativ for the dogs. It would also be a training for staying on the bed, as it isn't necessary any more to click the very moment they are on the bed. They already have quite a good duration and I could gradually increase this too.

Thanks!!!

Contrary to your voice, the sound produced by the clicker is neutral, it doesn't make the difference to the dog whether it's you or someone else clicking as long as you remain the only one who is interacting with the dog and delivering rewards (which makes it suitable when adding a third person in the picture)
So it makes it pretty clear to your dog that "every feedbacks are coming from you" whether you are "on or off sight" (very important psychological part of the exercise)

Thanks Paul, yes, I idiot now have got it. When I changed to the "ok". I trained like a fool first without dog to get that sound everytime exactly the same. "Ok" additionally seemed to me to be a good choice because it can't be confounded with any everyday word here in Brazil. It is not common at all.

I don't know, if my helper will be able to pronounce it the same way I do. A clear difference we'd already have because male voice. Never mind - for the next phase I'll use the clicker again. Once they've got it regularly at a good distance, it should some time work without the helper. Do you think I could proof it with a leash? Then I could feel, if they leave their bed and I'd come back and give the release (if merited) myself
Another possibility I thought about is training with the helper to produce a sound, which doesn't change because of male or female voice. For example a click with finger or tongue or a bludge with the hands?

Or a whistle with the additional advantage that it could be heard farrther away. Unfortunately this one would conflict with the recall. Can I whistle for the recall once and for the place 3 times or in another rhythm? Whichever, I would of course have to reload any new command.

Thanks for your patience, Paul

Long story short, you are better off if you use the clicker for this, it will be less confusing for your dog.

About fading out the assistant from your training sessions, the dog should never even think that the third person impacts the training in any type of way.
as I said, the assistant should be "neutral" and entirely ignored by the dog (if you do it correctly).
so whether the assistant is there or not there afterword shouldn't normally make a difference to the dog.

To proof "distance based" exercises like these, you need an E-collar, not a leash (assuming that your dog has already be introduced to one and understand it)

Thanks so much, Paul. Yes I'll do it that way. Sounds all very logical.

An E-colar I haven't got yet, but anyway thought about buying. Of course I first have to learn how to handle it correctly and get the dogs used to it. As far as I know, LB offers a course or a DVD about this.
Great ideas, less complicated than mine!