Hi,

I read somewhere that almost half of the dogs are washed out from the KNPVprogramm because they can´t deal witn the stickattack in their couragetest. Is the stickattack really that hard to overecome for the dogs, or is it a lack of proper training for it?

IMO it seems that if the dog is working more in prey drive it is more likely to be run off by "harsh" stick hits. I'm not suggesting that dogs working in prey drive cannot be trained to take a stick hit, but most that I've seen work in a club level trial with the same helper. A dog working in defense with good fight drive is going to hang in there with the helper. Prey drive is a happy fun drive that dogs enjoy. Defense is stressful to a dog. I have witnessed this with my own 2 dogs, as one is more prey driven and would be run off in an instant while the other has more natural aggression and enjoys the fight. Now the question is, is the courage test a prey driven exercise or a defensive exercise? I've heard arguments for both. On one hand the dog is thinking "Yay" he's bringing my favorite toy for me to bite, on the other it's "I'm under attack and I need to defend myself." Again, just a theory and MO.

Ive seen plenty of prey driven monsters that would go through anything for the bite.So I dont think you can say dogs that are only in prey are the ones sweating the stick hits.

David, good point, and again I was only theorizing. So what is your response to the original post? I'm curious too! I also understand from others that the KPNV is much more demanding on a dog.

From the little I've seen of KNPV decoy work, I'd say that the sport takes more of a toll on the dogs body than most dog sports. The decoys don't appear to give with the impact and I've seen dogs getting jammed and twisted pretty hard. this could result in the appearance of stick shyness when it's more likely a side effect of repeated jamming on the entry.

I dont know if what the original poster is saying is actually factual.I dont know if half of all dogs that try KNPV are washed because of stick hits, or if half the dogs that are washed have trouble with stick hits.Or whatever. I would find it hard to believe that those KNPV guys have any trouble training stick hits and I also find it hard to believe that with the kinds of dogs they are breeding that half of them arent capable of stick hits. Ive worked with sevral dogs that were probably washed out of KNPV and are now working police dogs, and those dogs are pretty tough, no problem with sticks or any scenario. As far as the question about stick hits ,Id say its a combination of correct nerves and training.For the dog with a healthy balance of Def. the stick can really bring out some aggresion,, on prey monsters they may not even notice.Either way the dog needs good nerves and the stick trained in correctly.

The stick attack is very hard on the dogs mentally and physically. I believe that this and one other exercise in the PH I program; the dogs are supposed to achieve a certain score in both exercises in order to proceed or still be 'in the game' and have a chance of receiving their PH I.

There's a lot of 'weight' placed on this courage test and even if a dog receives perfect in all the other exercises...if he blows either of the two exercises or receives less than a certain % in each; then he 'can go home'.

The decoys are good and so accurate with so many years experience that 90%+ of the time the stick is broken over the dog as in the video link below. The impact is very hard as the dog is running full speed at 80+ meters/yards and the decoy is also running and screaming into him on the entry.

When I was there at the 2001 KNPV Dutch Championships...out of all the entries for the PH I; there were only a handful that had what I would consider a truly GOOD 'stick attack'. Many slowed down on the entry and 2 or 3 stopped all together before biting. With some it was a training issue and with others it was a nerve/genetic issue.

Here's an mpeg of a 'nice' stick attack for those interested since we're on the topic (and for those who have never seen one). There's audio on it as well to give better appreciation for this exercise:

KNPV Stick Attack PH I

My understanding is that about 1/2 are 'washed out' during the training process (usually within the first year). It's usually not just the stick attacks but the dog's/pup's genetic potential from the beginning and in other areas.

The dogs don't usually feel the full impact of the actual stick attack until much later in their training (around 2 yrs of age). Up until that point all the training on that exercise is done in components with a lot of low stress, high prey work to build confidence, imprint, and condition the dog for what's to come.

Hey Brigita,
I was hoping you'd post that vid of Tyr. That's a classic example of the stokstellen. By the rules, not only does the decoy not 'give' on impact, they MUST continue forward at least two more steps AFTER the impact. The stick itself is kind of incidental, and is not the primary 'deterrent' in this exercise, as the baton is in the Face/Flee attack of French Ring.

I've seen dogs and decoys carried off the field on this exercise (sometimes both). It ain't pretty, for sure. Even the above video can't really do justice to it...you have to see it live.

I don't know if 'half' the dogs that train for KNPV are washed because of this one exercise because as Brigita states, the 'full stress' of the exercise is not really shown to the dog until it is much older and able to deal with it mentally and physically. Most dogs that are washed from the program are booted long before it gets to this point, and for a lot of different reasons. So no, I don't think the stokstellen is the reason that most dogs don't succeed in the program.

And Brigita is absolutely right when she says that this test of courage effects the dog's score through out the remainder of the program. Even if done correctly, if one of the Judges or decoys detects something they feel is 'improper' in the dog's make up, they will find a way to expose it in other parts of the program, thus adversely effecting the score.

Hope that helps.

From what i have seen on video, i would say that this dogs have more problems with leting go of helper than of stick attack. I mean, beeing bitten and dragged around the field by one of those beasts for last two months (yea, owner of showline pup gets to know what working dog is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), that dog is not impresed at all by the stick. He will maybe deflect a little to the side while jumping towards you but will hit you hard enough to leave nice blue marks on your arm through the fat jacket. And i hear that this dog is not extreme for that breeding programme, and that there are much stronger dogs.