How do you know when to stop giving treats as rewards? Why is it that you are in favor of rewarding with treats, while my trainer isn't?
My puppy shows aggression toward men mostly. My trainer thinks I should have her spayed because of "bad temperament". I don't want to. Maybe I should get a different trainer?

Really need more info. Age, breed and sex? What does the pup do around men? What method is your trainer using? How do you correct the pup?

Here are more details.. She's a GSD, almost 8 months old. Sometimes she'll sniff the person/man, then start to bark and growl, sometime she starts right in as soon as she sees him.
My trainer uses praise as a reward. I don't know what method you'd call it. For corrections, I jerk on the leash with a firm NO.
Should I carry treats and have the strangers give one to her?

There aren't a lot of dogs who will work to earn only praise, unless you have a fawning, submissive dog like many golden retrievers. I wouldn't stay in my job long if I only got a pat on the back; show me the money! Same with a dog - they're just as selfish as we are. They'll work their butt off for you IF the reward is worth the effort (or conversely, if the the pain of NOT working is worth avoiding). Since I don't believe in using avoidance conditioning (aka compulsion, "corrections", jerking on the leash, etc) to teach a dog, I use whatever that particular dog values as a reward in order to motivate him to give me his very best, and in the process, he learns to associate working with me as a wonderful thing. They can't WAIT to work for me. Corrections have their place in the education process, but it's not in the early stages, and not in an 8 mos. old who probably doesn't know much yet. Using only praise probably means that he doesn't value the reward all that much, thus he isn't motivated by positive reasons; instead, he is motivated to be correct by the "bad" feelings of being afraid of the corrections. This makes for a dog who never learns to love to work; you and the work are primarily associated with fear, not enjoyment. That's why all of us use food and/or toys with our young dogs, so they develop an attitude that working with us is great fun. That doesn't mean you have to carry weenies around with you for the rest of your life!

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
There aren't a lot of dogs who will work to earn only praise, unless you have a fawning, submissive dog like many golden retrievers. There are lots of dogs who work for praise. Show me the working herding dog who gets toy rewards or food rewards. For centuries, breeders bred herding dogs who did real work, all day every day, for little more than praise as rewards. It's the heritage of most of our working breeds. While there is a wide range of tasks that we do with our herding breeds today, many of which benefit from food & toy rewards, it'd be a shame if we lose the intense pack drive to please the handler. If it seems like a weak reward, perhaps that's because breeders haven't been selecting for this trait as they once did.

Laura

Laura wrote: "Show me the working herding dog who gets toy rewards or food rewards. For centuries, breeders bred herding dogs who did real work, all day every day, for little more than praise as rewards. It's the heritage of most of our working breeds. While there is a wide range of tasks that we do with our herding breeds today, many of which benefit from food & toy rewards, it'd be a shame if we lose the intense pack drive to please the handler. If it seems like a weak reward, perhaps that's because breeders haven't been selecting for this trait as they once did."

This is not a correct way of looking at herding work or the reward that drives a dog to herd.

"Show me the working herding dog who gets toy rewards or food rewards."

We don't have to, because the dog is being rewarded by the behavior. Complex prey drive reward. . .or herding instinct rewards for lack of a better term.

Herding is an expression of prey drive, moving the herd, following the herd, pressure on the herd, chasing the herd. . .most things a dog does in working herding is acutally a prey drive, and rewarding. Herding is a self rewarding type of work. Prey drive!! Dogs like to chase things, dogs like to push around herds of animals, dogs like to engage the animals, dogs like most of the work. . .because it is all rewarding their deep predatory instincts (drives).

A dog's pack drive is absolutely positively NOT the primary reward the dogs gets while herding, and certainly not in the hard core herding dogs and their bloodlines.

Praise is important and a secondary reward for the dog, pack drive is important, but if you think they are the primary rewards and reasons a dog is herding you are wrong.

All types of "drives" are being rewarded as the dog works the herd. . .praise, pack support, is one of the lesser of those rewards.

The tool to train obedience in the dogs isn't pack drive either, it is still desire to engage in the herding behavior. If a dog is screwing off, you don't let them get at the work. . .while on lead. . .or you put the dog up. . .whatever.

Then of course you have to consider that a lot of obedience trained for herding is done using regular reward methods while teaching. . .and regular compulsion.

Bottom line. . .you still need to work in your dog's currency, what is most valuable to the dog.

For herding dogs that is the prey drive reward of actually herding. Most other dogs, especially young dogs the reward is usually FOOD. . not praise. Never has been. . .

Maybe that has something to do with why they call food a primary reinforcer?

Our cute little doggies don't run off and herd because of a deep love or sense of duty to their handler. . .

They do it because deep down they are predatory little bastards and it makes them feel really good to chase and drive those succulent little walking meat bags.

Shepherds use that drive reward as the motivation in training the dogs. They obviously use pack drive as well, but that isn't the primary reward for the dog.

Same situation in obedience training. . .the food/toy is the primary reward, and most often the praise is secondary.

I'll say this one more time cuz I got carried away with the herding. . .

Bottom line. . .you still need to work in your dog's currency, what is most valuable to the dog.

That will get you the best results, especially in young immature dogs.

Everything you've said makes perfect sense. Why doesn't my trainer work this way? She's training by force, and I can tell that my dog is getting fearful. I'm going back to treat rewards. So, how long will I need to carry treats? Will I just KNOW?
What should I do when the pup barks and growls at the men? Ignore it?

VC, Well said....and well said......and well said yet again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Janet, many pet trainers who earn their living doing this use a lot of force becuz they can get quick results, and time is money to them. Many pet dogs have only mediocre food interest or toy interest, whereas almost all dogs can be scared pretty easily. Fear is the strongest motivator of them all. Either try telling your current trainer that you aren't satisfied with the direction she is going, or find a trainer who uses a more balanced approach.

The key to the rewards is that when you are first teaching a behavior, you reward every time the pup gets it right. He builds an association that this "sit" thing means something good is coming. Then you take the sit to lots of different places and under lots of different distractions, still rewarding heavily. When it's really solid, you switch to intermittent reinforcement, meaning that now you reward on a random schedule: you require two sits before he gets a treat, then four, then one, then five, etc. In other words, not EVERY behavior will earn a reward, but he will definitely get one at some point. This is exactly the same reinforcement schedule that keeps millions of people going to the slot machines - you know it will pay off, you just don't know when, so you keep trying and keep trying. And the longer you go without the payoff, the more certain you are that the NEXT ONE will be the one that pays off. The dog gets the same mentality. He'll learn to keep trying in order to earn the reward. So even when he's middle aged, you still want to reward some of his behaviors in order to keep the motivation high. They're not machines and won't work for nothing. But food and toys aren't the only rewards - you can use favorite activities as rewards also, such as getting dinner, going for a walk, or any other activity your dog loves.