Something strange occurred today with my normally ball crazy 7mo GSD. He seemed ditracted, not intently chasing the ball, and dropping it on 3-4 occasions. We were in our normal backyard training area. This dog normally will not stop, and will hold on for very long periods of time.
A little background. I have been using the methods outlined in Bernards/Eds drive building and focus video. Things seemed to be going well. Even yesterday at training, he was so "gung-ho" for the puppy sleeve, that the helper tried the hard sleeve for the first time. The dog went nuts for the hard sleeve, even when the helper drove into him slightly, and let out a short "yip" in a high pitched voice to test his reaction. This resulted in the dog driving into the helper, and briefly growling. The helper/club members were very impressed with the dog's reaction. So my read on this is that the temperment is good, but today he wants to drop the ball or tug and approach me when I mimic the helper's "yip" from yesterday.
My questions are: I am reading too much into just a bad day? Did yesterday's session go to far for a 7mo pup? If drive has been reduced, how do I get it back? Finally, could this be a nerve issue, or a "phase"?

What made them think that *growling* was a good reaction?
He's 7 mos old, he's a baby. He's probably stressed. The last thing you want is for him to get bored w/games. Put him up and let it go for awhile. More pressure now is the worst thing you could do.

I guess they thought that it was good that he didn't drop the sleeve, and drove into the helper when the noise was made.
Could it also be possible that I am boring him with playing the "game" in the same fashion all of the time? Are you suggesting that I stop the playing for a few days, then go back? How about obedience, reinstate food reward (I have been using the ball)?

Glock,
Can't really tell from here what is going on. But, you'll always do less damage w/a very young dog by doing less than by doing more as far as training goes.
I'd back off on the obed entirely. There are a million things that could be going on, perhaps he doesn't feel well or the bite session was too much for him, no way to know from here. But, it sure can't hurt to give him some down time until you can figure it out.
And the males do get a bit looney around this age also.

Thanks a lot. I know its nearly impossible to figure out what is going on without seeing first hand. I am very new to this (this is my first Sch dog), and I certainly do not want to damage the dog.
The dog is a male, and looking back at recent events, has been acting somewhat looney in other aspects as well. Wondering around as if searching for something, taking notice of things that were ignored before... Just little things that are inconsistent with his normal behaviour. I'll back off for a couple of days.
Another thing that I just thought of. Normally I do all training/playing in daylight, but with the recent time change, today was the first day that we played in virtual darkness (porch light). This may be a factor.

Whoa. Noises that the helper makes during bite work is used to stimulate prey drive. High pitched screeches and heavy sounding breathing increases drive. This is a very advanced technique that experienced helpers use. This is not something that you should be doing. I doubt highly that you are accomplishing the same thing that he is except to confuse the dog. Working your own dog on a sleeve or tug is only suggested if you do not have a helper. You can very easily interfere with your helpers work on working his grip. I am on my 6th SchH pup and I only work the grip for the first couples of weeks until I start back at my club. Once my helper works my dog I never do for the rest of his life. Right now you should be doing two things. Tracking and building ball drive. Good luck. Keep us posted!

Nice catch, Vince. Hadn't really considered the noises. My overall sense is that the pup is being stressed too much, and that's what he's telling Glock, laut and clear. I agree, build drive and confidence now.
Glock, I'm guessing your pup is of European bloodlines? They mature very, very slowly. Just b/c he may think he's a Big Dog now, he's very much a baby and it is easy to inadvertently put too much pressure on him now. No harm can come by easing off and letting him be a puppy. Work w/trainers who understand how crucial this phase of his life is to developing confidence and power in the work.
I've heard many trainers say that a GSDs best working years are 5-7 or 8. Anyone else think that? I have noticed that at 4-5 they are finally grown up enough to have mental maturity and self control, while still young enough to play.

Ever time I get disappointed I reflect back to a book by Tom Rose where he explained that a gentleman in his club brought a dog that hid behind it’s owner and would not budge for the life of him. Tom told him to take him home and play some ball and bring him back next year. This dog went on to win the nationals with a score of 100 in protection.

Vince... can you advise which book that was? Anybody know what dog that was? Its a great story... but doesn't speak well for the DVG National reputation with regard to nerves.

Glock,

I'd like to go back to your original post to give you my opinion about what may have happened.

"Something strange occurred today with my normally ball crazy 7mo GSD. . . .This dog normally will not stop, and will hold on for very long periods of time. . . .Even yesterday at training, he was so "gung-ho" for the puppy sleeve . . ."

Up to this point you describe a puppy with nicely developing play/prey drive behavior -- no conflict & all positive responses to prey stimulation.

. . . "the helper tried the hard sleeve for the first time. The dog went nuts for the hard sleeve, even when the helper drove into him slightly, and let out a short "yip" in a high pitched voice to test his reaction. This resulted in the dog driving into the helper, and briefly growling."

Here you clearly describe the exact source of the problem IMO. Your helper couldn't resist "testing" your puppy in defense (growling tells you that). At 7 months your puppy was not mature enough emotionally for defense testing ...... but, even if he was mature enough, he probably was not built up by proper pre-conditioning to deal with it yet. IMO your puppy was "shocked" into a sudden defensive feeling(negative feeling) by the helper ("the helper drove into him slightly") and had absolutely no idea how to handle it.

As you must know from your Bernhard Flinks tapes, dogs learn 100% through feelings -- good feelings/bad feelings. A smart trainer will teach a dog using positive motivational methods of association -- ie. making sure the dog is set up to have good feelings associated with whatever the trainer is teaching the dog to do. This is motivational training in drive.

The fact that the puppy "went nuts" for the hard sleeve when it was presented for the first time in prey illustrates what a good, strong, solid foundation motivational training can achieve. This session should have ended there (in prey) for the first-time introduction of a hard prey (sleeve) item.

What happened IMO is that the helper introduced defense ("drove into him slightly") which the puppy felt as negative -- at the same time the "short yip" was given. The puppy associated the negative feeling initiated by the defense pressure with the short yip. And, now, whenever the puppy hears that sound, he associates it with that negative feeling and his drive drops like a rock -- he lets go of the prey (ball, sleeve, whatever). As you said: "but today he wants to drop the ball or tug and approach me when I mimic the helper's "yip" from yesterday."

If drive has been reduced, how do I get it back?

You get the drive back by building on play/prey positive feelings again. Then SLOWLY introduce defense pressure when the dog's drive & confidence are strong enough to learn to handle it -- ie. when the dog tells you he is ready.

Finally, could this be a nerve issue, or a "phase"?

Not necessarily either of the two. Hopefully, it was just lack of proper drive pre-conditioning prior to introducing defense -- along with introducing defense too early to a young dog. -- JMO.

Ellen

(DISCLAIMER: Anything odd, strange, stupid or otherwise indicating a lack of anything meaningful to say is due to mysterious editing beyond my control. OTOH anything brilliantly intelligent and insightful is totally due to ME!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />