Hi There,

I would appreciate insight regarding to dogs that tend to be "mouthy" when on a sleeve. What are the reasons for a dog to be mouthy on a sleeve and what methods are used to correct this behavior.I see some trainers put great emphasis on grip and pull which is said to eliminate mouthiness, some dogs do not pull "naturally" when on the sleeve, how can we encourage this if it is of any relevance. Is this more prevailant amongst dogs that have higher nervous system activity or dogs with weaker nerves in conjunction with high prey drive. Is it as a result of poor developmental training or moving to fast where the relevant dog may not have been ready. If one tries to correct this via training using equipment say on an elastic tie-out, will this help to clamp down the bite and eliminate the mouthing and if so how do we transfer this behavior from here to out there on the field? What are you opinions of using a leather sleeve?Or is there something that we can change regarding the dog's outlook or disposition that will bring about a calmer, less mouthy bite? Is the dog mouthy as a result of stress or is this some sort of displacement behavior where the dog is trying to "release" stress. I see the guys in Holland physically press the dogs mouth closed in an attempt to tighten down the grip and eliminate mouthing, is this appropriate. In some cases dogs out to quickly not retaining the bite enabling one to try and correct the bite, improve the grip and eliminate any mouthing. It's just that I see so many people progressing through training, working routines already yet the bites are shallow and mouthy and in some cases full but still mouthy. I feel this is the case as it's a lot easier teaching a routine then developing a bite to its fullest, considering certain genetic traits, thresholds, nerves, drives etc. where helpers don't posses this feeling, experience and knowledge.

Thanks for any insight regarding this.

You covered just about all the problems in grip work! Genetics is a big reason for a mouthy bite. Some types or methods can improve and maintain a naturally mouthy dog to some degree of fullness and hardness, but it normally shows back-up in trials at times. Training the out wrong or to soon, can cause problems and yes training other parts or a routine without grip imprinting done first can cause a whole lot of trouble. Pulling is good in a lot of cases and when a dog does not pull normally most trainers will whip the front legs in order to get the dog to pull, if you desire this. Driving a dog hard and fast, with the sleeve high somethimes also helps. The pulling is an effective method, when you have the right animal. Alot of dogs cannot withstand the stress of the whip hitting them, and in thoses cases you have more problems then just chewing a little, then you started. Most females cannot take that type of training. Swinging a dog of the ground will force the dog to bite as hard as it can or it will loose the prey. You need an exprienced training decoy to fix grip problems, or someone that knows dog training to direct the decoy. Hope this helps/

Mouthy grips can be a product of genetics, poor helper work or the dog anticipating the out.

Originally posted by Vince P.:
Mouthy grips can be a product of genetics, poor helper work or the dog anticipating the out. Should it be in a case where the dog is anticipating the out I presume it could be in conjunction with good or unfavorable genetics. Considering both possibilities, how would you minimize the anticipation to better analyze the bite and in the case of unfavorable genetics, what training would be adopted to minimize this. Is it a hands on training approach or do we try and get in the dog's head and change his outlook in order to get the desired response. Also is mouthing directly related to nerves, when genetic, or is it possible with dogs that have good nerve type yet are extremely high in drive. If it is as a result of poor helper work, what various approaches at stages during training may be most responsible for such behavior? Just trying to get a broader picture here.

The genetic factor is a pain, not much you can do, but you sure can try.

I would like to speak to the "out" problem and how it affects the grip. If you teach the out using hard ass force then the dog really comes to hate outing. First the pain, second the loss of the prey item and fight. If you teach the out using a more positive method then you can eliminate the problem with the dog anticipating the out. It is no longer as bad of an experience as it once was.

I have also found that dogs always do much better work if you are using Czech commands. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Try using Pust instead of Aus, I am sure that will make a world of difference. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ya right, but at least I won't have to hear Auuuuuuuuuussssssssss!! all the damn time coming from the protection field.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
If you teach the out using a more positive method then you can eliminate the problem with the dog anticipating the out. It is no longer as bad of an experience as it once was.

Thanks for the reply, so is it correct to say that as a result of the "compulsion" we form a conflict situation where the dog is not able to think and put things into perspective and thus the dog becomes "hective" as a result mouthing as a type of displaced behavior? If we work on the nice side may there also be anticipation yet no mouthing?

Uuh, that's a bit more complex than it has to be. The dog is worried about when he is going to be "outed" so he is less involved in the fight on the sleeve. He is kinda grimacing in pained anticipation. Thats the way I look at it.

You’re missing the point guys. It is not the compulsion in the OUT that causes a mouthy grip but the thought of losing it’s prey item. This is a key point in Flink’s training the In My Arms. The dog is made to feel comfortable around you and not every time he comes close to you will you take away his prey. Sometimes you will pet him, others you will play tug with him and on a few occasions you will ask for it back.

Yep, sorry - should have been more specific. He is worried about losing the prey item and the correction. That is what the pained anticipation is about.

Nice job of cutting me down Vince. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are on your way to becoming a great moderator, mean as a rattlesnake under a boot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Didn't I say something about losing the prey in my first post? I must have read that wrong. :rolleyes: lol