I have the drive,focus, & grip video & understand all the concepts (good video). When running my dog in a circle, he likes to chew on the ball (I just recently introduced the OUT command) but when I bring him into my arms he tightens up his grip & becomes calm.

My question is this: How do I keep the game going if he won't drop the ball? I want to do more than 1 bite per session but I also want to keep the OUT as the last resort to get the ball back in my hand. I've read where some people say they only OUT their beginner dogs once every other day to every 3 days or so, which is what I'd rather do instead of doing it numerous times per session. But how can I start up another game instead of just hoping he drops the ball(which he doesn't), or commanding the OUT? Is there another way to get the ball back that I may have passed up? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

The ball in the hand is 2 times better then the ball in the mouth...so the dog thinks.

Have another ball. Show it to your dog in an inviting way. When he drops the ball he is carrying say "out" in whatever language you want.

Don't give the other ball and steal away the ball the dog dropped.

Follow up training: Toss the ball 2-3 times not much more. On the 2nd or 3rd time you make the dog out, toss the other ball for outing and have a “play” command. This way the dog will understand some rewards can be gained for outing fast and clean. If you don't toss the other ball once in a while some smart dogs will learn this game and avoid you just to keep his ball and not be "tricked" so remember this and reward the dog sometimes.

Mike,
How old is your dog and how long have you been doing the Flinks drive work? How did you do the out?

If you already introduced the out then I would think the dog should have NEVER dropped on his own at all and the grip going back to chewy is the dogs way of showing you he now anticipates it.

I started my Itor son on the work at 8 weeks when I got him, he is now 9 1/2 months and I JUST introduced the out in the last 2 weeks. I used the ecollar.You don't want the dog to out because of another toy in your hand, if he does then it was too soon to do the out. I know what you mean though, it's kind of boring to do one bite and run, carry and into your arms but it will pay off in the long haul. If Bernhard wants the toy from a young pup or young dog he offers a piece of food, when they drop it the either takes the toy away, builds drive and the end of the session or starts drive work again. The way Dennis explained is just another form of 2-ball which promotes chewy grips and prematured outing. (if you don't care to do the Flinks type of drive, focus and grip work then using this method is fine)

When the dog will NEVER drop the prey item, even for food or another toy or lifting the dog up is when the out should be introduced...I even went so far as to offer my young dog a bowl of food and pour water from my water bottle on his head and he said...NO WAY! So I knew it was time to do it.

And to answer your question about keeping the game going, do drive work, give the bite, carry and then into your arms and then fight with the dog with the toy,then carry etc.... depending on your dog this should only last 1-3 minutes anyway. There is no need for an out every time you play with a young dog.

Thanx Dennis & Cindy for your advice. The two-ball method makes a lot of sense.

He's almost a year old, I started the focus work with him a few months ago. The way I taught him the OUT was by pulling up on his collar, getting his front feet off the ground, choking him out until he spit out the prey item.

As far as holding on to the ball, he does that. I can't bribe him with food. He has excellent food drive but chooses the ball over the food. The two-ball method will probably be my best bet. This keeps the game on a positive note & that's exactly what I want.

I used to do the 2 ball method years ago, if you are going to do Schutzhund with the dog you may see that the dog could out in protection prematurely or the grips could be less firm and more chewy if you do it this way. I want the dog to hold the toy until I say out, and not drop (the ball, the tug or the helper) until I give the command. When you use the two toys you are teaching the dog that by emptying his mouth the game continues, I would prefer that the dog thinks keeping a full hard grip until I say otherwise makes the game go on.

Your original method of teaching the OUT is not the right way to do it if you want to use Berhards method. It should be a quick fast thing, not lifting the dog up and doing the strangling by keeping his front legs up...I believe the electric is the way to go for most people, it takes all the body movements away and I don't know about you but I want the OUT to be associated with compulsion. That and the informal recall are both the only commands I give and use corrections with in a young dog. Both of these are MUST DO commands and I don't want the dog to wait and see if I have a second toy. Out is out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If he outs quickly and cleanly then the game does go on and he is much more intense, he isn't looking away from the first item to my hand for a different toy.

If you have a very soft dog or don't wish to do schutzhund where grips are judged than the 2 ball method should work for you.

Good luck with your training!

I like the quick flank move that Bernhard does. Ive used it succesfully with the few dogs Ive taught it to.

Also, Cindy, Is 9 and a half months a little longer than usual since Im sure you started as soon as you got the pup. I like the idea of not outing for a long time but hadnt really thought of going 8 months before I did.

Mike - you need to read Cindy's post. This is the correct way to trian the OUT.

Your wrote "The way I taught him the OUT was by pulling up on his collar, getting his front feet off the ground, choking him out until he spit out the prey item." Choking the dog off the bite turns on the nerves of the dog and creates a mouthy grip. Think of someone choking you - would that not turn on your nerves? I think so.

Two ball is just as bad for sport dogs. I wrote the same thing as Cindy yesterday.

Ok, the two-ball method is out of the question, glad I haven't tried it out yet. I want to stick to the Flinks method, definately don't want any premature outs. I guess he's at the point where your dog was, where he won't drop it for anything. But how many bites can you give a dog that you can't bribe with food anymore, and that you don't want to OUT that often to? Is one session enough, because at this point that's where he is, he holds onto the ball all the time.

 Quote:

Originally posted by David Morris:
Also, Cindy, Is 9 and a half months a little longer than usual since Im sure you started as soon as you got the pup. I like the idea of not outing for a long time but hadnt really thought of going 8 months before I did.

Hi David,
Yeah, I waited a little long to do the out because knowing my dog's genetics and my personality and influence on the dog I wanted to wait. I am what Bernhard calls a "big chief" to my dogs and that can sometimes make them a little sensitive to me. I know from what I was seeing out of this young dog that he has a lot of potential and I didn't want to screw it up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wanted to use the ecollar as to remove any body movements from me to cue the dog about the out and I also wanted to be a distance away from him so he wasn't worried that when I get close, the out is coming. With the ecollar, it's black and white to him and I wanted him to be totally comfortable with the collar and really solid in the grip before I did this.

better to do nothing than the wrong thing! I knew the out would not be a problem with a dog I raised from a puppy and I wanted that really super grip to be his reward...he is also very puppyish in many of his behaviors so I wanted him to be mentally mature enough to handle it..