I have a question I would like others opinions on. In SchH on the courage test why is there such a difference between the way most US helpers in the USA do it and the way the Europeans do it. I have two friends that have helped me a lot, both of which are very good helpers and have lots of experience (national events, etc)one from Germany and the other from the States. When you watch them do a courage test you get two different pictures. I realize helpers have their own style, etc. but the one style seems to be supported and even taught by the USA helper committee. The AZG guidlines says the helper shall come at the dog making threatening noises. The USA does not support this. When you watch my German friend he comes at them yelling and then within the last couple of steps pops the sleeve and stick up with a yell and then does a stop catch. The American friend comes and makes and attraction noise then he is silent and about 20 yards out he pops the sleeve and stick up and does a side step catch. I have seen more dogs get freaked out by my German friend. I think my US friends method just kind of becomes a long bite, not really a courage test. What's others opinions on this, the complete picture, yelling, sleeve timing, catch, etc?

Is your dog one of these dogs who have been "freaked out" by your German friend? I agree his method sounds more like a true test of courage, but it needs to be slowly built up to that level. A GOOD helpers goal is to READ the dog and build him up to a certain level WITHOUT generating avoidance. Apply Pressure yes, generate avoidance no. These dogs that have been freaked out will never reach the same level as they would have. This is why you have to be so CAREFUL at this, and be able to READ DOGS WELL.

Jason
You miss understood my question. I am not talking about training, this is trial helper work. At this stage all training is over the trial helpers goal is to test the dog. And yes my one dog does have a problem when he is pushed like my German friend does his courage test. This is not the way my German friend trains all the time, trials yes.

Doug, Your right I did. If dogs are crumbling before this helper, one of two things is happening. Either the dog was not prepared to deal with this, in which case training was not "over", or the dog just doesn't have the nerves for the work.

Jason
I agree. As a person who is involved with SchH which type of courage test would you like to see?

I Think the tougher the better, until my dog can't handle it, right? Then, it must just be too tough and they're simply asking too much from these dogs!Ps I'm not involved in Schutzhund at all.

I’d like to see the helper running down the field, yelling all the way. But… in club trials you’d probably lose a lot of dogs by doing that. I think in the upper levels of competition, it should be required, but not for club trails. However, I’m not so sure we’re going to see too much of yelling while running at the dog, the sport already has taken hits for lessor type "behaviors".

I don't understand the problem with an agitator acting aggressively in a courage test. If there is not some confrontation it is just another prey bite. The best courage test I ever saw was at an NAPD trial. They had the biggest agitator there go behind a blind after the dog was sent. When the dog came around the bilnd it was met by the agitator comming after them with 2 coffee cans of rocks shaking them and screaming at the dogs. His arms were held high enough that many of the dogs couldn't reach and had to make leg bites. With this test not only was the agitator charging the dog, but you had the size intimitation and the sound of the screaming and the cans of rocks. All out of sight of the handeler, the dog was completely on it's own. The only problem was the dog that went for a belly bite and got under the suit.

Now THAT'S a courage test! excellent!!!

Doug,

It seems like you are talking about two different "styles" of helper work-yelling vs not yelling. USA helpers favor non-yelling style, while DVG-sanctioned helpers are taught to yell. I once trialed my bitch in a DVG trial, and although she's never been exposed to this kind of training, she didn't hesitate a bit. On the other hand, I was at a national level trial in Canada where the helper was silent and on the courage test a dog belonging to a member of the host club totally missed the bite--ran right past the helper. Of course, normally, even at a club level event, the dog would've been dismissed, but in this case the judge ordered a retake, instructing the helper to come out yelling, because "that's how they train at ... club." The dog bit on the second try. Now, why would a dog not engage a silent helper, beats me. But it leads me to believe that it's just a matter of training. Yelling or not yelling does not have any bearing on "courage". For some dogs both types will still be a prey bite, for other dogs it will be a confrontation either way. In my opinion, dogs react more to body language than noise.