Ok, here goes. On another list there is a discussion going on that I get a kick out of. Someone recently joined a club with her IPO3 dog. The helper is telling her the dog has to learn to 'trust' the helper in order to get the sleeve. The helper then pets the dog after her slips the sleeve. Now of course I tried to chime in I didn't recommend this and of course am getting all the usual comments.

Does anyone else feel this is EXTREMELY stupid to have the dog 'trust' the helper? Last time I checked we where supposed to be showing off our breed worthiness and soundness. Not how sweet our doggies are.

Please correct me if I am missing something here.

well, I saw that same thread, and kept quiet there, but since YOU asked, and not some touchy feely person wanting to be buddies with helpers...

as a helper, I'd rather have that dog ready to rip me a new one on the field. If I've got the equipment on, I'm there to challenge, pressure, and fight with that dog, I'm not there to be friends. I'm like that when I train my dogs at home, when my friend is the helper at club meetings, anytime anywhere. Just seems to me that if the dog sees the helper as a friend, they'll just play, and not have a thought about real defense should the need arise. Now off the field, yeah, I want the dog to be friendly to me and see that it's just on the field that we're opponents.

Right thought, wrong reason. We work with the aggitators and the dogs interacting shortly before and after the dogs work. The reasons for it are based on the way we ecpect the dogs to work. First, the dog needs to understand that it is the behavior that triggers action not the person or the place. Not everybody that is in your home is going to stay friendly, and the dog should react to the person's behavior. Another reason is that the dogs that are trained this way tend to "cool off" quicker. The dog is able to go from working either a bite or a bark and hold to accepting the person they were just going after. I have seen recomendations of up to 1 hour of seperation for the dog after it makes a bite. I think that is probably as excessive, but the point remains. The dogs we work with cool down in seconds for the most part. This is important because the dogs live in the house and as soon as the dog is called off it must accept a visitor. THe dog goes from ready to take the person out to being their best friend. The dog participates in our lives and has to fit in to that life.

Nice post Richard, BUT if the helper is petting the dog RIGHT after he slips the sleeve, then he is wrong. It will depend on the dog as to how long you should wait. (A dog with a lot of defense will take a long time. A dog with a lot of fight will take a very short time. A dog that is all prey, no problem, anytime is petting time.) I don't like that kind of training. It shows that they are not working the dog in defense and therefore are not training for real life. Prey play has it's place, but when bite work progresses you should be working in defense, prey, and fight. Even if the sleeve is gone, and the helper reaches out to the dog to make friends the dog should be aggressive. Now, after the dog has cooled off from the attacks, then he should have to accept anyone that the handler accepts. It should be the actions that dictate the dogs aggression, but in good training it should be done in different areas. Civil work to me means both aggressive and passive. That is where I work on control issues like this, not during agitation.

VanCamp,

You will have a hard time finding a more defensive dog than my Giant. Once the sleeve is slipped he brings it back to me and I pet him for about 30 seconds and then he takes it over to the agitator to be petted. This is a dog that will make attempts to go around a sleeve to nail the aggitator. After getting a bite on the person rather than the equipment he will do the same thing.

I have worked with several trainers in PP, and all of them trained this way. From my point of view, I want the dog to be able to cool down quickly. Once the dog understands that it is the behavior, not the person, they will cool down quickly. Some do take a few minutes, and some develop an attitude to a certain agitator, but all are approachable right after they work. I think that one of the things that makes this work are dogs with very balanced drives. It is a question of getting what you expect. Not all of the dogs have always worked this way. Most have to be trained to do it. Training it can be risky with some of the dogs until they understand that it is the behavior of the agitator, not the person. This makes the dog safer in other situations, since the dog can go from making a bite to being petted by the person almost immeadiately.

Ok, now I am confused. Who are we making it safer for??? You mention PP dogs. If my PP dog bites someone to protect me. Why would I want it to be safe around that individual? Why would I ever want it to trust that individual again? So again I ask, who are you making it safe for? You, the dog, or the bad guy?

Depends on the dog and the point at which the dog is in his / her training. If you are training pups or young dogs just starting out, (which should be treated as pups), it is awfully easy to "lock" the dog in defense which will cause no end of problems later on. Ed's video on The First Steps of Defense makes this point very well.

For the beginning dog...absolutely...the dog should first see the helper as a friend and "play buddy", to build the prey drive. Yes, you can "lock" some dogs in prey, too, so you do need to mix it up some as training progresses and the dog gets stronger and more confident. Using defense too early may look impressive to someone who does not understand all the implications this early stress brings to the party, but it is a BIG mistake.

Having said that, a dog with an IPO3 should be able to take some "heat" from the helper without problems, but he, too, should cool down quickly. If what this helper is saying is that the dog should give him a serious fight and then immediately allow him to be friends...no...this will get you hurt with a dog that is willing to go civil, and...I believe...is not smart. 15-20 min. later...ok.

the latest part of the discussion, the owner states the helper gets down hugs the dog, takes the leash from her and goes for a walk! This is not a green dog or a young pup. They definetly should be all fun and games. However, I believe this helper is 'hurting' this dog.

I hope this guy has some good insurance, 'cause one day he is going to try this with the wrong dog and get his face remodeled!

Hmmmm. . .well. . .if you say so Richard. I don't train that way. A mature dog that is at the top of his bite training shouldn't be playing around. When possible I progress to suits and muzzles in my protection work. This work really brings out some hard core aggression. I have not seen any decoys that were recieved very well right after this work. I don't want to see any decoys recieved very well right after this work. After a little break, no problem. I try to put real pressure and fight onto the dogs, when they are ready for it. I don't think that you can achieve your level of "friends" with the decoy if you are doing that. I think that there may be some dogs out there that can do it, but I don't see the purpose. My dogs are non-aggressive unless ordered to bite or attacked. Once that happens, its on. . . No more need for friends. They have good outs, and are focused on me even with a decoy agitating. They can also be approached by a decoy in full gear without going nutzo. I don't know what more control I would need? I don't need the dogs to be friends with everybody, but I also do enough positive civil work that they are not overly suspicious/sharp to non-aggressive strangers. I took my former dog anywhere, including to my office where I had all kinds of people in and out all day and night. I just don't see the purpose for that kind of training. Early on of course, but not with a mature practiced protection dog.

Different training ideas I think, not necessarily wrong, just different. Kinda old school if you ask me. In this case with Todds "other" board person, I think this may be a little extreme. (If true?)