This may be a dumb question, but is it desirable for a dog to show "real" aggression in a schutzhund trial? if so, this must be very difficult to maintain in the dog as it goes through repetitious training where it learns it can always defeat the helper, I would think.
If "real" aggression is going to get more points, is there a way to train for it, and also how would one maintain it?

Answer that question and in a nutshell you have the answer to "How do I make it to the Nationals?".

I'm still working on that myself. . .

But, I can tell you that it is important. You have to maintain a training atmosphere where the dog views the helper as an enemy, a fighting partner, the BAD GUY. Not just a motor behind the sleeve that only needs the right grip to dominate or the right bark to flush back to prey.

For top level sport, it is a trait that is required with most dogs. The dogs that have real aggression, are normally the dogs that get the most comments in the sport in its favor. I feel that though alot of judges like to see it, it is seldom seen of late.

Most dogs that are competing at the high level sport are biting the sleeve and nothing else. The helper is just a motor behind the sleeve. While there are dogs that bite the sleeve that have aggression through training the dogs aggression is directed towards the sleeve not the man. Even this is not seen very often. Alot of dogs are taught to work in prey drive and really nothing else. If the dogs prey drive is strong enough, it will withstand anything to win its prey. These dogs sometimes look tough but really just have a high threshold for stress. They are not working primalry in aggression. Many females cannot work in aggression. They cannot handle the stress.

Your decoy will make alot of difference to which drive your dog works in. The routine will not play a major role, as in training you should vary your routine anyway. It is how you work that dog that will decide what drive your dog will work in. If you use one method to promote a strong grip, maybe you will achieve your grip, but not in aggression. This is why it is important to have a good training decoy to set the foundation for a young dog. Alot of dogs cannot handle working in aggression, but can work in prey. It is a complex issue that has many diffrent points of views.

Another problem is that many clubs do not want dogs working in aggression for liabilty reasons. This is a problem. In fact there was a thread a bit back that addressed this.

Vancamp and Mike,
Great response!
Done very well, and yes it is a complex thing in training! We all would love too see the real fight in the trial But that PREY monster drops in or poor training.
GREAT JOB GUYS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I wonder how many people competing at the top levels of sport (particularly schutzhund) really work their dogs outside of the sport routine such as civil agitation, muzzle work, body bites with the suit, setting up scenarios which require the dog to think and react off the field, such as in a building or vehicle. I'm sure some do, but my impression is that the folks looking to get on the podium see such training approaches as interfering with obtaining points. I suppose the feeling is that many dogs with the drive to excel on a national/international level simple need retraining to accomplish other levels in protection work outside of sport. I wonder how often the top sport dogs really can do real work or produce offspring with "real" aggression.

The traing isn't going to affect their offspring, but if we are not selecting winners with developed aggressions then we are not selecting the best dogs to breed.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
The traing isn't going to affect their offspring, but if we are not selecting winners with developed aggressions then we are not selecting the best dogs to breed. Van Camp has hit the nail on the head with this statement.

I was going through some of the older BSP scores, back in the late 70's and have a few tapes of these dogs working. Alot of these dogs had true aggression. Some did not have this full, back to the mollars no shaking grip that is liked today, but they were sure. There was also something like 20 odd V rated dogs back then in the BSP. Today it is normally 10 on average. And if you look at those 10, in most cases there are only 3 or 4 that are real dogs. Alot of the newer methods do are not made to bring out aggression in the dogs. There is such an emphasis put on prey development. While this aspect of training has opened our eyes and helped our training, it has been blown way out of proportion.

I know a German trainer, that back in the 80's he would have the helper agitate his dogs without any equipment, so that they would not get fixed on the sleeve-today this is almost like tabboo for a schutzhund dog in his eyes.

The protection aspect in the sport has been changed. While the strong for real dogs can still grab the win, it has been changed, I feel to accommodate the show dog, who can do a routine in prey, but never could this dog work in real aggression. I find that this is the case most of the time with the SV trials.

Dogs with real agression are much more difficult to control so when you go for the points prey drive looks better to me. Look at the best dogs at the BSP or the WUSV championship. Do they have real agression ? I dont think so

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"The traing isn't going to affect their offspring, but if we are not selecting winners with developed aggressions then we are not selecting the best dogs to breed."
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Problem in many lines is that winners on points are more often are taken in the breed because there easier to sell and easier to handle and can be given in hands of unexperienced handlers who hope that their dog has inherited the "trics" the father shows on trials.

I hope you understand what i tried to say.

Talking about agrresion in dogs - there is a dog in out club Xamm Von Der Daelenberghutte - this dog shows real aggression on the feild towards the helper and often to his handler. He is as serious as they come i believe, and competed in the 2003 WUSV. This dog was imported from Belgium and his training there was apparently 'hard' to say the least and instead of breaking him it made him harder. The dog works at a different level which can be seen when comparing him to other dogs on the field - dogs which also have competed at the wusv. Now this dogs agression is a product of his training but he had to have the hardness in him otherwise the training would have broke him. I dont think this kind aggression can be trained in just any working dog.
By the way this dog isnt a caged beast of the field either - lives in the house and is great with children - go figure !?

Originally posted by Tim Leigh:
... Now this dogs agression is a product of his training but he had to have the hardness in him otherwise the training would have broke him. I dont think this kind aggression can be trained in just any working dog.
By the way this dog isnt a caged beast of the field either - lives in the house and is great with children - go figure !? Tim,
From the way you describe Xamm, I don't think its accurate to say that his aggression is a product of his training. The aggression has always been there, it has just been exposed and promoted through his training. You cannot 'put' that (civil/'real' aggression) into the dog through training. Like prey drive, its either there or its not.
Likewise, in my experience handler hardness is an independent trait from aggression. I've had a few dogs that are handler sensitive, yet display very real civil aggression.
Your comment about Xamm living in the home with children just exemplifies that the dog has a solid, sound temperament. Sounds like a great dog. I've had the pleasure of knowing his mother, Rani, she is an excellent dog and producer.