I'n unclear on the way the various drives show up in different breeds. More specifically, are some protection BREEDS generally (not always) more inclined to "stick" in drive for periods of time after training? For instance:

1. Are there dog BREEDS which, if trained in defense, are comparatively likely to get out of defense quickly after the session, and others comparatively likely to show some defensive stress or behavior for a time afterward? If so, which are they?

2. Suppose you are working police canines. Are there dog BREEDS which, after a training session in fight drive on Monday, are comparatively more likely to show a readiness to slip into that drive in their street work on Tuesday and Wednesday, and other breeds which, in comparison, will not show that increased readiness as much?

3. You're working with a puppy, getting him to chase a tug. Are there BREEDS which, as a result of a session of that sort, will be relatively more inclined to chase toys, critters, etc. for a day or two after? (Note "relatively"-- that is, compared to other breeds.) Which are they?

Very obviously some breeds are more trainable than others, and some individual dogs will show more effects of drive work when the work is completed. Not talking about those things. Rather, I'm asking about the general BREED differences in the drive behaviors which dogs exhibit for a period of time following training sessions.

Thanks for any info.

My thought is that it isn't that the dog will stay in drive as it will move back in to drive quickly. They seem to learn quicker what they should go in to drive for. If the pup is going to chase a tug it is more likely that it will chase other things. I drive work may intensify the behavior in all areas.

I think the difference in breeds has to do with what type of behavior they display as a "default" behavior. Prey based breeds will express things by chasing it. "Defensive" breeds are going to wait for it to come to them.

My belief is that "cool down" rates have more to do with how they are raised and trained when they are young. If they are taught that the end is the end, they will come down quicker after they are worked. If they are allowed to maintain the behavior and are not taught to cool down quickly they will stay longer in drive. I also think that the reaction to not being worked when other dogs are makes a difference. I have my dogs watch starting when they are very young and they are not allowed to get really wound up until there is a threat to them. I think that by teaching that little amount of control early helps them to cool down quicker.

Thank you very much, Richard.

One of several reasons for the question was that fight and prey drives are exhibited in individual events. While the same thing is true of defense drive, there seems, in some dogs or maybe some breeds, to be an added dimension: defense drive seems to endure in some dogs, analogous to a colored lens, casting an enduring tint over the way the dog "sees" things, and detectable not only in individual events but in subtle behavioral characteristics which are continuous over time after the training session.

If that's the case, then I wonder if there might be specific training (calming exercises which address defense drive or some such) to be done AFTER drive work with those dogs or breeds.

I'll go back to drinking my coffee now. Thanks again.

Hello,

The various Drives that show up in protection breeds, are more Temperament and Drive specific, rather than breed specific.

1.

 Quote:

Are there dog BREEDS which, if trained in defense, are comparatively likely to get out of defense quickly after the session, and others comparatively likely to show some defensive stress or behavior for a time afterward? If so, which are they?

It depends on the Drive and Temperament of the dog doing the work, not on the breed.

2.

 Quote:

Suppose you are working police canines. Are there dog BREEDS which, after a training session in fight drive on Monday, are comparatively more likely to show a readiness to slip into that drive in their street work on Tuesday and Wednesday, and other breeds which, in comparison, will not show that increased readiness as much?

If the dog is genetically correct for Fight Drive, and the Fight Drive training is correct, then the dog will show a readiness to work in Fight Drive, but again, it depends on the Drive and Temparament of a specific dog, it is not Breed relatated. You want to look for the Fight Drive Genetics within a certain breed of dog that you are looking for, whether it be a Malinois, Holland Herder, German Shepherd, or Rottweiler.

3.

 Quote:

Your're working with a puppy, getting him to chase a tug. Are there BREEDS which, as a result of a session of that sort, will be relatively more inclined to chase toys, critters, etc. for a day or two after? (Note "relatively"--that is, compared to other breeds.) Which are they?

I would say that Malinois, Holland Herders, and German Shepherds tend to have more of a higher prey drive on average than other protection breeds, but then again it depends on the Drive of that indivdual dog, because there are some Malinois, Holland Herders, and German Shepherds with no prey drive. If you do have a pup with good Prey Drive, he will have it every day, you just want to work it and bring it out in a positive motivating way, so you have to buy from a QUALITY WORKING BREEDER that breeds for GOOD TEMPERAMENT AND DRIVE.

John wrote - I would say that Malinois, Holland Herders, and German Shepherds tend to have more of a higher prey drive on average than other protection breeds, but then again it depends on the Drive of that indivdual dog, because there are some Malinois, Holland Herders, and German Shepherds with no prey drive.

My Comment -I agree with this but I do think on average there are dogs breeds that respond quicker to prey stimualtion, preceived threat and are aroused faster. The two John mentioned are noted two of the best the GSD, (I'll add the Dutch Shepeherd) and Malinois are the easiest to get prey reactions out of. I've never seen a Holland Herder is that the D.S. a rose of a different color still smells ....

I will stated that you have get use to working with different breeds some like the Rottie or Am Bull dog, may be more defensive minded and may not react to the prey items. It takes a little nudging for that light to turn on its head, "Oh this what you want"! So weather a dog has it or not, does depend on the its genetics. It also depends on how versitle the trainer is in figuring out the How To?, Or Who this Dog is??

Once that type dog finds out this is the respond you want, it will give a 100%. I almost gave up on a Rottie expecting the same responce that I got from my GSD. I was informed to praise on the slightest reaction and she got it, after several attempts. This was after a week of the same prey motion that ignited the GSD, that she just looked at, like what are you doing? I was thinking maybe she just don't have it in her. But it was Me.

The Holland Herder is a Dutch Shepherd.....I guess I should call them Dutch Shepherds.

Wayne.... I think that genetics plays a large part in determining how long the dog is going to take to "de-drive" be it in prey, defense, or fight. I believe that you can help lower the recoup time by making sure that as you slowly build drive in your dog you also work on bringing your level of control over your dog to meet that level of drive as close as possible. I realy like to work obedience into most of my "aggression control" work that is not done on a post. So many times I hear from handlers that they loose control over their dogs when working them in high drive....but never try to control the drive by giving the dog something else to do, to "de-drive" the dog and force it to focus on a new task. I have only seen one dog that when it kicked into defense that you could not bring it out was a dog that went through alot of table training and was basically ruined from it.. but that is the topic of another thread!

To all: Thank you very much for these replies.

Matthew, you've made two points, I think:

1. How quickly a dog "recovers" from drive is largely determined by genetics.

2. Giving a dog a task, optimally an obedience exercise, can lower the "recovery" time.

Going by the maxim that "no good deed goes unpunished," <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've got some questions for you, if I may.

1. If recovery time is partially an issue of genetics, would you say that there could be breed differences in typical recovery times? Think of the beauceron or the dobe, for instance -- the beauce breeding stock was down to about fifty individual dogs at the end of WW II; other breeds had a similarly limited gene pool. Could this have resulted in breed differences in typical recovery times, showing up as differences in average recovery times among dogs of that breed? (Also possibly important is that a few protection breeds are from herd guarding lineages, and survival combativeness may -- or may not -- play a role in their recovery from defense.)

2. While giving a dog an obedience task may lower the time it takes the dog to recover from defense, what would you say to training somewhat similar to focus training, or calming, which would remove stress on the dog? (I am not sure that "calming" training would do it, as my understanding is that it generally targets the dog's agitation or frustration, but not necessarily stress from defense work.) What might that training look like?

Many thanks again. These questions all have some points, and they have to do with improving training techniques and expectations; and I very much appreciate your help.