Good questions. Hopefully I can shed a little light on a few of them. Originally SchH was created to test the working ability of a GSD for breeding purposes. Years after, trainers began to train their dogs to score high in each individual routine. Think of it this way. Most of us test puppies for protection work basically the same way. We take an 8 week old pup into a strange place and run a serious of tests. Dropping an object to make a loud noise. Throwing a ball to see if he retrieves it (sport). Calling the pup over to test for shyness. These tests have been somewhat successful. Now picture this. A breeder takes a 6 week old pup and has a stranger perform these tests every other day for 2 weeks. Now along comes you or me and performs these tests. This pup will have a much better response than his littermates. Why? Because we masked his weakness through training. The same is true with SchH. Now for your question on the protection routine. The reason why so many dogs get pronounced ratings on protection is the lack of drive understanding in judges. Most mistake active prey aggression for fight drive. Heck I do it too. It is not until I review the videotape over and over until I make the distinction. Hope this helps a bit.

Really if your dog bites full, hard and outs clean, barks non-stop in the blind, under control, you will get a V. It really does not matter if the dog was playing or having a real fight in the dogs mind. The reason is that the judges want that full mouth grip, so dogs with high prey usally have it. I believe that judges do not understand drives, I have seen them look at a dog and pass a comment about how I would not want to meet that dog on a dark night, but the dog looked at the whole thing like it was a big game. SOmetimes it is hard to tell the diffrence between the two. With that said, most judges like to watch and usally comment on the real dogs about how great they are. It is a real confusing thing. MAybe the tests should change, to sperate the two more clearly but it is unlikley. I agree that Schutzhund has become more about the trainer then the animal.

Michael,

I have to disagree on your opinion that judges do not know what they are looking at.
They are restricted by the same rules we all are performing under. The rules do not allow for interpretation of drives, not the judges.
Remember the ten point scale for courage? That was a better tool for schutzhund, but it was abused. Maybe they should put it back, but let the decoys give the rating. Also, remember it is a full calm grip, not a full hard grip. Time for sleeves that measure pounds per square inch.

Scott

Bill do you do SAR? I have gone to a SAR club and was told that Schutzhund style tracking was a great foundation for SAR work. The dogs do move to air scenting but know the difference between Schutzhund and SAR tracking

Karmen:

Ed has said the same but he always states that it must be with drive training never force. Once force tracking is introduced all bets are off.

i couldnt agree with you more, as a police dog handler i have seen the schutzhund method used on police dogs and it looks very impressive in a show but in reall life it wouldnt work and we try and harnes the dogs natural ability, as you say what is more important,,find the suspect or missing person as quickly as possible or follow footstep by footstep.
surely with the schutz method the handlers ability to read his dog is lost,when the dog moves off the track all he is doing, it seems is re-assuring himself and also the wind will play an important part.
schutzhund is probably fine as a sport which is what i believe it is used for but as for use with police dogs.......i think i need a lot of convincing.
i have seen a video on training the retrieve using the shutzhund method, this involves a table, pinch collar and the dog is srapped to the table, the article is produced and forced into the mouth of the dog as pressure is applied to the pinch collar.
the end result is a forced retrieve out of fear.in a competition it looks like a perfect retrieve and all for the sake of a few points. i get more satisfaction from training the dog to retrieve becuse he wants to do it for me and not out of fear.
sorry to ramble on.

There seems to be a lot of bashing of schutzhund going on here. First, it seems that the goals of schutzhund are being entirely misunderstood.

First schh is a selection test for breeding stock. Not for police dog stock but for generalized working stock that may result in police dogs, S&R dogs, detector dogs, companion dogs, etc.
Second, it has become a competitive sport where points are the goal.
Third, it is a enjoyable hobby for the companion dog owner.

Its history is that the skills that are curretly present in schutzhund are derived from police dog behaviors. They have, since its beginnings, strayed away for many reasons. Police dog behaviors came first, sport came second.

Those that are bashing schutzhund as not being adaquate for police work are not using schutzhund correctly. It is not a training philosophy or technique. Those things are up to the participant. If you don't know any better than to show up at a schh club and hope that the way they train produces a police dog, shame on you, not the sport.

For those that believe that training a dog to do sport makes for a unrealistic police dog it again goes back to the handler not having a clue what the sport is about.

Look at the web site that hosts this board. Bernhard Flinks videos advertised here. He does both sport and police with his dogs and is on his third police dog that does both sport and police. I for one have titled my patrol dog to schh III and plan on doing an FH with him soon.

The question becomes, is the instructor/handler knowledgeable enough to first select the correct dog, second able to determione the difference between the dogs performance as contributing to the overall goal of having a police dog that does sport or are the behaviors the dog is displaying in the sport work detrimental to this goal?

The police service dog handlers on this board need to spend a little time with those that can and do work successfully on the street with their police/schh dogs before condeming schh sport. Dog enthusiasts who do schh sport likewise need to not push sport training techniques onto police dog handlers who participate in their clubs. When in doubt seek direction from someone knowledgeable in both endeavors.

Schutzhund is a great foundation and enjoyable hobby for the PSD handler as long as it is understood.

Thank you Kevin for a clear and concise explanation.

Bill asked "Why is there so much emphasis on appearance?" Remember that a sport, by definition, is a competition that is scored.
In gymnastics, for example, the gymnast is scored on precision and artistic ability ...However, in dog sports... all dogs are required to perform the same movements--so all that is left to judge (according to the rules)is precision.

Precision is a partly a test of the dogs ability to be "molded" and partly a test of the trainers ability. Unfortunately, as training techniques have improved... lack of ability from the dog can often be masked.

As a result, dog sports are often as much or more about the ability of the trainer than that of the dog. In Schutzhund it may be about 40% training ability and 60% dog ability -- in AKC obedience it may be 75% training-- who knows???

Is this a good thing? Yes and No-- I think that training techniques have greatly increased in the past 20 years-- many of these techniques have improved the way police and S&R handlers operate as well-- so thats good. Of course, the down-side is that we now can rely less on dog sports to measure the ability of the dog.

kevin i am not sch bashing.i dont know enough about it and readily admit it.
i mentioned the forced retrieve in my post which was from an american video.
why does the retrieve have to be forced?
and why should a dog retrieve out of fear of pain?