Here is a ? has been rolling around in my head for a while, that I have been debating. It deals with Pattern Training, now I know from other threads that this is mostly a "not wanted" situation, BUT....

I have never trial'd before but I have watched many so forgive me if I seem stupid here hahahha "Would it be the first time? "

During the blind search when the dog barks and holds helper, handler fus's dog out of the blind then helper walks out for the escape. When the handler is going to search the helper, and the handler puts the dog in a platz, commands helper to put hands in the air, then searches helper... bla bla bla

My question is, would it not be cool to have the dog Platz automatically when helper puts hands up, and stay there until escape? I personally think this would be kinda flashy.

Now I know for a PSD and PPD this would not be a good idea for obvious reasons. But for a pure sport dog? Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Lonny,

First of all your routine sequence is a bit out of order: the dog is in sitz before the handler commands the helper to put his hands up, then the handler commands the dog to platz.

Second: why do you find automatic platz flashy? If and when this happens it is exactly due to anticipation which results from pattern training. It is not normal nor natural for a dog to platz while he is expecting the helper to break. Platz is a submissive place for a dog to be. By commanding a dog to platz the handler shows his control over the dog. It is an obedience exercise under considerable distraction, if you wish.

Renee,

Ahh your right about the sit part... that is automatic from the heeling, dog stops and sits automaticly. I just watch a tape, well even so when the hands go up he would platz.

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Second: why do you find automatic platz flashy? If and when this happens it is exactly due to anticipation which results from pattern training. It is not normal nor natural for a dog to platz while he is expecting the helper to break. Platz is a submissive place for a dog to be. By commanding a dog to platz the handler shows his control over the dog. It is an obedience exercise under considerable distraction, if you wish.

Would it not demostrate extreem control, and self control/ and obedience if the dog Platz'd all by himself fully expecting the helper to flee "distraction", when the hands went up?

I'm not arguing here, just asking heheh <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Furthermore... hahah I just want to know from experienced trial'ers if this would hurt training in any way and result in less points, or not matter, or possable give more points. So all you old school fellas speak up!

Yes, it does look flashy for the dog to down quickly and automatically when the helper raises his hands. But the rules of schutzhund state, “ the handler calls the helper out, “downs” his dog after ordering the helper to put up his hands.” The key word here is after. This is a technical question better answered by a schutzhund judge but my understanding is you could lose points for the dog downing automatically in anticipation of the escape. I think Renee is correct.

Ok, I know I know... I can see Vince cringing now... I am going to expand on my thinking and dig deeper into the receses of my mind.

I should begin with mabey "Pattern Training" is not the correct term here, rather "Behavior Response Training".

I can think of several examples of this in Schutzhund Protection relating to Helper behavior.

1: Automatic Out when helper freezes.
Helper Behavior then Response

2: Escape, helper runs dog chases.
Helper Behavior then Response

3: Transport with re-attack, helper walking in front, turns, dog attatcks.
Helper Behavior then Response

So my reasoning behind this thread would be, why not teach the dog to respond to a submissive act, such as "hands Up" with an appropiate response of Platz until escape? Helper submits to handler commands, dog responds with a lesser posture, but still ready to rock and roll if needed wihout being told.

Am I just an Ass or does this make sense? Yeah feel free... I opened the door.

Alan,

We must have been typing at the same time.. Yes that would answer my question fully! Any Judges here?

Lonny,

The fact remains that SchH protection routine is a command driven exercise. You are right that in the examples you gave above a dog is allowed to act independently. However, in IPO even those exercises are command driven. Of course, you can argue that these are man-made rules which can be changed and they have been changing over the years. But there's got to be a reason behind every change, more than that "it would look cooler or flashier".

I will use your own argument to make my point. You said:

***Now I know for a PSD and PPD this would not be a good idea for obvious reasons. But for a pure sport dog?

SchH is not just a sport, but a test for a dog's working ability and very often a stepping stone for real police work. The SchH protection routine was designed as a re-enactment of real situations encountered in police work, sorta like a play. So if the automatic platz is not a good idea for a PSD, why is it a good idea for SchH? Why make it even less real than it is?

And BTW, what makes you think that a person with his arms raised, still holding a stick, conveys a submissive posture to a dog? If anything this would make that person look even taller and more menacing. Think like a dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lonny B.:
I should begin with maybe "Pattern Training" is not the correct term here, rather "Behavior Response Training".

I can think of several examples of this in Schutzhund Protection relating to Helper behavior.

1: Automatic Out when helper freezes.
Helper Behavior then Response

2: Escape, helper runs dog chases.
Helper Behavior then Response

3: Transport with re-attack, helper walking in front, turns, dog attacks.
Helper Behavior then Response

So my reasoning behind this thread would be, why not teach the dog to respond to a submissive act, such as "hands Up" with an appropiate response of Platz until escape?

I'll take these as two separate issues.

First, the three examples of (1)automatic "out", (2) automatic "chase", and (3) automatic attack are all appropriate "natural" responses by a dog to the presented stimuli that triggers them. So IMO these specific exercises are set up to test the dog's ability to respond and perform appropriately out of "instinct" -- IOW to see if the dog has any kind of nerve (favorite term <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) or inhibition/avoidance problem that might prevent it from performing appropriately AND *automatically* to a given stimulus.

Second, the platz is not a natural/"instinctive" response by a dog to raised hands -- if anything, a bad guy raising his hands ought to set off an automatic attack response in the dog IMO. In addition, the hand signal for platz is a raised hand. That being the case, if the dog does an automatic platz to the bad guy raising his hands, it may make it appear "suspect" that the dog is obeying the command (hand signal) of the guy he is supposed to be guarding -- definitely not a good thing IMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . The dog should be attentive to and taking commands from the handler only.

Ok! Very good!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Your points are very smart and I agree with them. Can't learn if you don't ask. I will not be training the auto Platz... "just in case you were wondering, if I listened"

Thanks all!
Lonny