I took the advice and got the TTD/RCMP Volume One tape. The peeing on the track ended immediatly once I started giving the boy more time to break before we started the track. We took the training all the way back to the beginning....handler laid tracks....single leg. My training partner and I were satisfied after about 10 tracks that the boy understood the game and we went back to having my daughter and her friends lay the tracks for me. His nose is deeper into the tracks now and he is displaying more focus and drive. I have noticed at times that he begins to cast in a zig zag pattern no more than 5 feet from either side of the track. There is no environmental facor that I can see causing this. He will cast once or twice for about 15 feet on a 100 yd. track. Why?????

What is your air doing in relation to the track? Does he tend to do this when working into the wind, or are you laying your tracks with the wind right now?

Lisa.. we're laying with the wind right now. He had a tendancy in the beginning to cheat and begin to air scent when we tracked into the wind so we stopped that practice untill he picked up the deep nose. He's right on with his legs.... no scent pad and cutting into the track he is able to determine which way to go without prompting. When we are about 10ft. out from the quary he will begin to air scent... he knows when he hits that mass of scent the track is over and he realy gets worked up into a quasi "area search" although we have not introduced this to him yet..
I'm leary of introducing corners untill this casting issue is addressed.... I'm afraid of building on a bad foundation.

I doubt anyone can diagnose that kind of problem over the internet. There are so many possibilities, from shifts in the wind to animal crosstracks that you can't see to changes in your handling, etc etc. You really need someone on site to help you on that one.

So when you say he is casting, does that mean you think he is indicating loss of track, and trying to get back on? Or are you thinking he's quartering, which is moving back and forth across the track, but still on scent?

What kind of surface are you tracking on? Could it be that there are vegetation changes along the way, or depressions in the ground?

How old are the tracks when you work them? Is it possible that the wind changes between the time they are laid and the time they are worked?

Are you keeping a lot of tension on the line, and/or is he a hard puller?

It's hard for me to be helpful since I cannot see what's happening, which is why I'm asking questions. There are so many variables when dealing with scent that any answers you get are going to be educated guesses, IMO. The more info the better. I'm also hoping that some of the more experienced tracking dog handlers will jump in here any time.....

Oh, and do you keep a tracking log? Recording each track in a log will help you keep track of variables, and might help you figure stuff like this out in the future. Write down everything, from temperature, weather, wind direction and speed, time of day, age of track, surface type, vegetation, who the tracklayer is, etc. etc. Sorry if that's basic info that you already know.

One of the basic causes of quartering is working into the wind, but if you're not doing that, then I wonder if he's a hard puller, or if there's a lot of tension on the line, what happens if you ease up on the tension and let him work at his own pace...does he stay closer the track then?

Also, based upon my limited experience, TTD is less precise than sport tracking. You're not going to see the same picture of a dog cemented to the footsteps. Remember that in TTD, the goal is not precision, it is to get to the end of the track and get the bad guy. That doesn't mean you should allow or encourage sloppy work, but it just means you're not going to see the same precision as with FST. You should encourage your dog to work close to the track, but he is going to want to work where there is the most scent.

...and I agree with Lee! You'll be happier with in person help from someone knowledgeable in TTD.

Id keep tension on the line so the dog is pulling me and when the dog is off track Id stop and when on track pull me forward again. The dog is eliminating where the track isnt. He is tracking along saying "here it is , here it isnt, here it is, etc." Success comes ( moving forward ) from being on the track. In police tracking I dont care if the dog does this some. If the dog does it alot or all the time then I want to clean it up. The main thing is you understand the dog is only half of the tracking process in police traking. The handler is the other half and needs to be watching closely at his dog and learning how to read his dog so he KNOWS when the dog is on track or has lost it, so he has the ability to take his dog back to where he KNOWS the dog was on track and start him again or circle him to see if there was a turn there he missed. The more you track and the more success the dog has at it the better he will get.

LISA:So when you say he is casting, does that mean you think he is indicating loss of track, and trying to get back on? Or are you thinking he's quartering, which is moving back and forth across the track, but still on scent?

ME: My bad.. when I said casting i was describing whay you called quartering...no loss of the track....just moving back and fourth over the track.

LISA: What kind of surface are you tracking on? Could it be that there are vegetation changes along the way, or depressions in the ground?

ME: We are sticking to short grass now untill he gains experiance. I have noticed that too thick and high vegitation results in his air scenting as the scent gets stuck all over the higher vegitation.

LISA: How old are the tracks when you work them? Is it possible that the wind changes between the time they are laid and the time they are worked?

ME: About 15 min delay time. I try to keep training to level areas but that's next to impossible in Pittsburgh. Also, wind changes are VERY common due to the terrain here.

LISA:Are you keeping a lot of tension on the line, and/or is he a hard puller?

ME: No tension on the line... i let him take all 30' of line when I know he's on the scent and i run with him. I keep training records (logs) for all our sessions...tracking or otherwise.

Dave... I do exactly what you suggested...when he goes off track I stop and let him work it out then run with him again. Asfar as the elimination goes...it's a non-issue now. He's not eliminating at all on the track... I was not breaking him long enough when we had that problem.

Like I said.. he's 100% on these tracks.. and he's not giving any indication of loosing the track when he "quarters".... I think I'll continue with a few more 1 leg tracks and play around with the wind direction to see if that eliminates it.

Finding people knowledgable in TTD in this area is tough... most of the imported dogs here have a title or were partially sport trained prior to import from Europe and are footstep trackers.

When I say eliminating Im not talking about the dog using the bathroom Im talking about the dog eliminating where the track isnt, I mean he is putting his nose off track and saying to his self ,"here it isnt" therefore eliminating that spot.
I would stay alot closer to the dog in the learning phase than what you say you are doing.
One thing I do when a dog is doing alot of back and forth acroos the track is start laying the track barefoot for awhile so it is more pronounced and the dog holds his nose to it harder and gets out of the habit of automatically swaying back and forth across the track.

Another potential cause for quartering is if he's having trouble with the track...like if it's too difficult. Or, he could be checking out some other interesting scent (goofing off), or it could be that the human scent is stronger there, or, as David mentioned, he could be dipping in and out of the scent path......it's really too hard to say without seeing. Sorry! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
My advice; don't stress on this! Just keep training like you are. It sounds like you're doing great.