As previously mentioned, I do agility with my 18 month old GSD female bred by myself. My friend also comes along and has my dog's litter sister. Both dogs have high prey drive, zero aggression problems, have been well socialised around people and other animals and so far have exhibited quite a high threashold for defence behaviour and good solid nerves. They could both do with more obedience training (under distraction).

The first time we turned up to the class, the other class members looked horrified that two such "aggressive attack dogs" should be allowed here. In time, we managed to conquer those prejudices since our dogs were good and didn't kill anyone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A couple of weeks ago, a woman showed up with a BC who was quite obviously terrified. It cowered with it's belly touching the floor and any time the woman tried to give it a command it lay on it's back showing it's belly. All the time, the drippy woman reassured the dog and praised it for it's fear !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

At one point, the dog started to snarl and bare it's teeth when near the trainer who was standing still with hands and arms at sides, not even making eye contact.

The next week, my friend's bitch was doing her turn at off leash work and in a lapse of obedience, ran round the field for a sniff, came close to the BC who launched into full on attack.

A fight of sorts ensued, where the GSD could have easily seriously harmed the BC - having her teeth round the BCs neck / throat several times. The stupid BC owner kept spinning round in a circle (like her mad dog) dragging it on leash into the air and half choking it (also creating a yummy prey item for my friend's bitch - honestly it looked just like a bite tube on a line)

Anyway my friend managed to call her bitch away and the BC was examined for wounds - there were NONE. The BC owner was busy yet again praising and comforting her dog for this totally unacceptable behaviour and no one (other than myself and my friend) was bothered about checking the GSD bitch for wounds <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> (there were some minor scratches)

I find it an amazing testimony to my friend's bitch that she obviously defended herself but inhibited her bite so as to cause no damage to the other dog.

The owner of the BC has since written a long letter to the trainer complaining about my friend's aggressive GSD. The trainer has since been giving this woman private sessions. At one of these sessions the dog actually bit the trainer. She says she will have to bring her back into the class soon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (I would tell her to go and play with her dog on the motorway). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Apart from working on better obedience is there anything else we should do in preparation for this dog's return? I suggested we should all walk off the field if the mad BC returns - I'm not sure I want to expose my 18 month old to any kind of contact with this dog.

Sarah BMK,

We have a similar problem when we dog to protection training. The dog isn't a fear biter it is just dog aggressive with my long haired dogs (particularly our Mini). The dog is an 80-90 pound Rott bitch, owned by a woman that is about 5" nothing and 80-90 pounds. On top of which she pays no attention to the dog. The dog has gotten way from her once and attempted to take the Min while she was working (our dog outed and came back to my wife, and the agitator got a hold of the Rott so our dog wans't injured). I have told her several times to control her dog and to maintain a better grip on the dog, and I get the dirty looks. Keep in mind I am handling 2 dogs, an 80 pound puppy and a 98 pound Giant, and have never lost one yet.

I do 2 things to deal with it. First, I always know where that dog is and and what the handler is doing with it. The other thing I did was talked with the trainers about the dog. For me, if the owner can't control the dog it shouldn't be there.

Your friend needs to get better control over her dog also. In many cases it may be better to have the dog down rather than attempt a recall. Many dogs will attempt to ignore a recall, since the down is usually taught with more compulsion, often the dog will respond to it better than a recall. Another thing that may help is to get there early and let the dogs sniff around and get it out of their system.

Richard

Thanks for that good advice. We have started getting there early to settle the dogs down. That's interesting what you say about the down and the recall. Thinking about it, it makes sense and I'll remember what you said and pass on the advice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know how you feel in this situation, we have a few snappy dogs at out agility and they all seem to be attached to owners who pay no attention.
My best friends dog is dog agressive (after being bitten) but she will not attach unless a dog "gets in her face" she is about 30Kg and my friend is small BUT she keeps the dog under controll, next to her side no matter what on and off leash. She has had only two fights break out and both were when her dog was working oncourse and a dog ran to her (this dog is a magnet!) as we always work together and my dog wont bite another dog even to save her own life we are always very observant of those who are not and if a dog runs at her dog i step in and intercept the dog with Ruby and so far that has worked well as they want to play with her. But it could go wrong if a dog just wants to kill, that is where i come in again because i have warned pretty much everyone that i will not hesitate to lift a dog skyhigh with my boot if it tries to hurt my dog.
So what we have found is Watch the idiots, keep your dog under strict control, and let it be known that if there is an unprovoked attack then you will take nessisary measures to protect your dog.
Another good thing i have seen is that if your dog has bitten a dog your dog has to wear a ribbon of one colour and another colour if it has bitten a person that way people who are not aware of the dogs shortfalls can be aware and keep thier distance.

Julie

I like the ribbon idea and may just suggest it if the dog comes back into our class.

Wow I just got rated . How did that happen?

Sarah

Be very careful around this BC. This aggression can sometimes ruin your dog for life.

Sadie, our Great Dane/Newfoundland is six years old and very dog aggressive. She is a dog we've had for 3 years as her previous owners didn't want her any more. Of course, in these situations nobody every tells you the truth and you find out the hard way. We'd only had her a few days when she attacked a very old dog. It was a bad situation which luckily didn't result in injury to the old dog. I phoned the previous owners who said she'd been attacked by a dobie when she was a puppy and does not like bitches. Well we've since found out she does not like any dogs except GSD's (she lived next door to one before) so maybe she has got taste. Sadie weighs 119lbs so walking her is a problem as whenever the red mist comes down she is a handful We know from experience she is better off the lead but we just can't trust her - we muzzle her when we're on the beach but that seems unfair if another dog has a go at her <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Sadie seem to get her attack in first - we've tried everything to stop this but nothing works
Actually, the previous owner has since murdered his wife in full view of their 2 children so I sometimes wonder if they'd kept the dog whether she would be still alive. (that's another story)
I do believe from our experience with Sadie that this is a problem that will not go away so you become very careful and avoid any confrontational situation.
This dog should be banned from the club- it is not fair to all the other members. Could be this dog has bad breeding/genetics and will always be like this

I found my first experience with Agility not too much fun...not because of the sport itself, but because the class I had chosen contained several folks who seemed uneducated in dog behavior. I had been under the impression that in novice classes all dogs would be leashed. My mistake. As mentioned above the most unruly dogs belong to the most clueless owners.

I didn't make many friends by constantly stepping between my young (7 months) bitch and an off-leash domminate intact Husky male, and telling the dog to buzz off! The owner gives the classic "He's just trying to be friendly..." response, while her male dog stands stiff-legged, and staring, with hackles up and a raised lip (now at me since I yelled at him). The instructor was no help, merely apologising off-line for the Husky's stupid owner.

Then there was the lady with a BC of the sort you described. Fortunately, she kept her dog leashed so I was able to keep away from her. But though I paid for 8 lessons, I quit after 4. It just wasn't worth the hassle.

Of course if I'd brought our older, dominant dog, it might have been a different story... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(Gwen...you have your "Members Can Rate You" function turned on in your profile..)

Dogma

You did the right thing to protect your young bitch!! I don't blame you for leaving the class - what a shame though! I'm surprised you were doing agility with such a young dog - was it just beginners i.e. getting to know the equipment - no jumps, no weave poles? Our dogs don't jump or weave in agility until they are over 15 months.

Gwen

Don't worry, I don't intend to to allow a situation to present itself between my Steffi and the BC fear-biter! Steffi doesn't tend to approach other dogs in the class (apart from her sister). I think my friend and I will be doing lots more work with Steffi's sister on the "down" and the recall.

That's interesting Sarah. This Beginners Agility class was open to any age; in fact there was a 5 month old lab puppy there too. Totally uncoordinated and nooo attention span! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And yes, they taught everything to everyone: jumps (including the A frame), tunnel, walk board, seesaw, table....it was all done in slow motion and the heights were well reduced, but it was all there.

I went primarily to do expose my young dog to different experiences (ie people, dogs, activities), thinking everyone would have their dog under control. Like I said, my mistake!

BTW, like a true gsd, she wasn't fazed by any of the obstacles. It was just the loose unruly dogs that ruined it for us.

Unfortunately, the BC as a breed can be very dog aggressive and aggressive to people for that matter. An example of what can happen when you ONLY focus on working ability, where nothing else matters.

It seems to 'work' for BC breed as they tend to be very biddable dogs as well. It can be fairly easy for owners to pick thier dogs up and remove them from the specific circumstance. As well, the breed REALLY wants to please thier owners (bred to work totally "with" thier owner and not independantly) and thus most responsible owners of them have them trained to ignore or put up with other dogs when their is a tendancy towards aggression. However, I have met some really nice BC's as well. There are some breeders who look more seriously at this issue as well as some major health concerns with them.

I NEVER take a BC for granted, in fact, I always assume that they are aggessive and I am very careful with my dogs around them. I was at a border collie herding trial where I had my dog (gsd) on leash out for a walk when from around the corner came 7 running, snarling BCs towards her. I was not impressed and was not quite sure what I was going to do , when the owner(s) called thier dogs. All but 2 listened and left. The dogs did not advance any further towards my dog but also did not stop thier snarling etc. I waited until the owner came and discipled her dogs and then took them away.

My dog did bark back and of cousre the looks all came my way on how unruley my dog was. (even though she never made an aggressive move back to them).

I did have one of the owners come up to me later and apologize (her dogs listened and came back to her) about the incident.

Unfortuntely, many owners of BC's have no idea what they have gotten into and what thier dog is capable of! That is why I always take precautions first.