How does the bark and hold relate to fight drive? Wouldn't this just be trying to initate a prey movement from the helper to get a bite? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Depends entirely on the way it is taught and the character of the dog being taught.

If you could explain, the difference in the mind set of a sport dogs bark and hold vs. the Patrol dog bark and hold.

Is it the distance (fear of or respect of subject) that the patrol dog maintains that makes the dog go into fight drive or is it the movement that prompts the prey drive when the subject moves or tries to leave? If this a prey motivated charge, then whats the difference???

Both the sport and patrol dogs are taught to bite if the decoy/subject moves or try to leave. I'm a still <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

If you could explain, the difference in the mind set of a sport dogs bark and hold vs. the Patrol dog bark and hold.

That depends on the work. Some dogs are baiting the bad guy into movement to satisfy their prey drives, in either discipline. There are no clear boundries here.

Is it the distance (fear of or respect of subject) that the patrol dog maintains that makes the dog go into fight drive or is it the movement that prompts the prey drive when the subject moves or tries to leave? If this a prey motivated charge, then whats the difference???

If the dog is afraid he isn't gonna stay there. Distance in itself isn't the issue at all. It is what character traits the dog displays and is propagated in the face of the man. Fighting character is propagated through combative behavior by the decoy and is satified in the dog through retreat of the subject. This is only true if the character of the dog is correct to begin with.

Both the sport and patrol dogs are taught to bite if the decoy/subject moves or try to leave.

Some are taught to bite and some are taught to fight. The difference is in drive satisfaction for the dog.

Mr. Kevin Sheldahl wrote

If the dog is afraid he isn't gonna stay there. Distance in itself isn't the issue at all. It is what character traits the dog displays and is propagated in the face of the man. Fighting character is propagated through combative behavior by the decoy and is satified in the dog through retreat of the subject. This is only true if the character of the dog is correct to begin with.

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I've always thought that fight drive developed from a defense drive (the drive to defend himself or the handler) in defense there is a fear factor, isn't? Does a dog in fight drive hackle up is it snarling and thrashing on the bite or while barking?? Is there a way to tell by looking at a dog if he will fight or go into flight in a bark and hold?
Or is this a test that is considered in another drill.

I can clearly see fight drive when a patrol dog is asked to stop a sitting or person standimg still.

But in a bark and hold I'm a little confused, as you can tell with me thinking the dog goes thru defense drive (the dog thinking this guy might hurt me, if he moves I'm gonna chew him a new a$%) to fight drive. I guess you are saying that only a dog's training stops him from just going in and taking the guy, no fear/defense drive at all? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don B. Ackerson wrote: I've always thought that fight drive developed from a defense drive (the drive to defend himself or the handler) in defense there is a fear factor, isn't? Does a dog in fight drive hackle up is it snarling and thrashing on the bite or while barking?? Is there a way to tell by looking at a dog if he will fight or go into flight in a bark and hold?

LC: Don I’m not Kevin and I won’t pretend to speak for him but I’ll pitch in my take on this. I consider, and I think Kevin does too, that fight drive is separate from defense. We don’t think (at least I know that I don’t) that it is “developed from defense” as you do. The best discussion I’ve ever seen on the three combat drives is in a discussion of the “Find and bark for Police Dogs” on Donn Yarnall’s website at

http://www.donnyarnall.com/Find%20&%20Bark.htm

LC: Donn thinks, and I agree that fight drive is a completely separate drive from either prey or defense. I’ve demonstrated all three drives in dogs that have them to many people who didn’t believe that it existed.

Don B. Ackerson wrote: But in a bark and hold I'm a little confused, as you can tell with me thinking the dog goes through defense drive (the dog thinking this guy might hurt me, if he moves I'm gonna chew him a new a$%) to fight drive. I guess you are saying that only a dog's training stops him from just going in and taking the guy, no fear/defense drive at all?

LC: if you consider that fight drive exists separately from defense then it’s easy to see it at work in a bark and hold. It’s satisfied by the detaining of, or driving off of an opponent. Either of which can happen while barking at a decoy.

LC: If you select a dog whose primary combat drive is fight, the bark and hold is easier to teach than if the dog works in prey or defense.

An interesting discussion. I'm just a newbie, working my first serious dog, but I see it as a matter of confidence. If the dog is afraid, it will either retreat, or bite first (best defense, etc.). If it's confident, even if a bit unsure, then it will naturally adopt the bark and hold (at least, that's what happened with Oka: his B&H was clean almost from the gitgo), esp. if one works the reward angle (bark, don't bite, and the decoy will eventually run and let you bite).

My question on this topic would be, can a dog be so prey drvin that it doesnt care about any thing else.So prey drivin that it just wants the bite so bad that it will run thru anything take whatever punishment,fear isnt an issue its just so prey drivin it wants the bite more than anything else!?

Yes

The dog may be so prey driven it does not bite without movement.