Would exiting the vehicle to protect the handler be Fight drive?? Or would it be defensive drive or both?

If fight drive doesn't really call for contact would the purpose of exiting be just to drive the person off or to bite his a@$%.

Now when I'm the handler in this scenrio I'm watching the dogs eyes, hair on his back, tail, trying to figure out whats going on. A lot of times I'm catch up emotinally that the dog is doing all this for me. (When I'm the helper I'm watching out not to get my butt bite off).

But back to the session, how do you tell which drive their in during this protection drill? Can you watch and say ok he's in defense, prey, fight back to prey?

Am I trying to make too much of this? I am trying to understand the why, like you guys mentioned instead of it just happens. OOpps, I should do this before we do the training, I'm usually around other knowledgeable trainers? that know more then I do.

But they admit not knowing more then you guys alot of the tapes and print outs I've shown them, they enjoy and are amazed. There are a lot of trainers (here) that just do what they were taught and don't reason why. A lot are ex police/security-k9 handlers. Is training cause and reaction when it comes to GSD/Mals? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don,

Go back and read any of the 12 other threads you have started on fight drive or read Ed's article. The drive involved is a function of how the dog is functioning, not what the scenario is.

Agreed but I'm asking how can it be read during a training session. I'm asking not what is fight drive? Thats already been answered, What I am asking is how can tell when its in gear or present is it possible to watch for the different drives shifting in and out?

This question was actually prompted by the indept follow up to my questions on fight drive and one thought came up some people say that fight drive doesn't exist in most dogs, one of the reason is because they have never seen it and can't tell when it exist.

I want to be able to see it and watch the drives interaction. My last questions solved and answered alot, but through that understanding I have other questions. Because one question has been answered does not mean that I understand the entire topic and just because you do. Could you share some of the light instead thinking can't you see what I see. As I mentioned there are Pro trainers here that don't know some of topics that are talked about here, dog training is not rocket science but its is vast and changing, like nay comabt art.

No I don't its fogging its not crystal clear.

It's like pornography..... you have to know it when you see it. It is a question of attitude. It is why reading dogs is so important for a training decoy.

Pornography??

I'd like you to elaborate on that, I mean somethings you can do naturally, maybe not well but you figure where everything goes. Determining what drive a dogs in or how to get him there is not, To Me. Maybe to you.

But this is what I saying to you. It's like you are saying "Man can't you see how this works, fight drive is the attitude a dog has, its plain as the nose on your face. You have asked this question before". But I haven't. I got answered but they just opened the door to what it is, I want to know how it works and what to look for.

But I like alot of beginners I don't see it as clearly as that. As mentioned there are some Pro trainers that have denied it existing in the present dogs or any dog. There are even Pros/experts that even though they agree that it exist they differ on definition, when and to what degree.

Richard like most Gurus, your parables only confuse, could you come down from the clouds and just be the Richard the kind hearted. You are usually concise and easy to understand, have I spent my quater with you?

Look, I know I'm asking questions that could cost me $1K of dollars to get at a seminar or secrets that would only be given at the end of a five phase seminar. But isn't this what this forum is about?

You can give the information but if a person doesn't know how to apply it, it only answers his question and gives him a reason to search and attend the next seminar.

The dog exiting a vehicle is taught and thus the specific motivations on why the dog exits for a bite are specific to that dog.

The drives involved are not different then the drives in involved with any bite work.

I will put some spin on this topic now… Most people believe the dog is fighting for the handler’s protection. I think most dogs fight for their own motivations and drive considerations. The dog, working as the “loyal protector” is secondary to his own reasons for working and protecting hearth heart and home.

If you don’t think so then answer this question: Does the dog in the yard bark at a stranger and hold him at bay because he has some high level of understanding that by doing so he is protecting you or does he do it because it is his home too?

It may break their dog handlers/ owners hearts to know it but it seems “loyalty” to the handler maybe a secondary consideration for the dog. I point will point to an interesting problem for handlers who are involved in a knock down/drag out battle with a suspect. One officer how had 3-4 years with his dog found himself on the bottom of a fight and released the dog.
His dog bit him instead of the suspect at first. The suspect freaked and tried to flee the dog took the suspect down.

Well wise cracks aside and a failure of procedure we still had the question of why an otherwise stable and proven dog bit his handler. At that time, many of us thought it was just a fluke. The dog was an intense situation and maybe did not focus well (as in direction/targeting) for his bite.

Therefore, we decided to recreate the situation with several dogs. We placed stable but solid biting dogs in a vehicle with auto door release and let the dog observe the handler in a physical conflict.

We waited for the handler to pretend he was loosing his advantage in the fight and almost pinned to the ground by his assailant. We released the dog (in muzzle) and 12 out of 12 dogs bit their handler first. May handlers had their pride hurt that day but it is a deployment issue they should know about it think. I wonder if anyone has more to say about this. I know it was just 12-13 dogs and this is not proof. I am interested in some opinions about it.

So the back to the main point I am making with this scenario: There is depth in the mentality of the dog during bite-work and not just one drive over then next. He may very well have fight drive but the drive is the fuel to do the work and not the full scope of the dog’s mentality while doing it.

Don,

It is just one of the things you have to know. Descriptions aren't a lot of help because much of it is a "gut" feeling about what the dog is doing. You have to see it in many dogs and learn to recognize it. It isn't like sit, where you can get a good desription of what the behavior should look like and be able to identify it.

Dennis,

Several trainers have seen the same thing in a handler protection scenario. My own opinion about it has been that dogs will tend to "gang up" on the loser in a fight to align with the "winner". The result is that the person in the "subordinate" position is the one that tends to get bit. This is also one of the reason that you have to be careful in disciplining 1 dog in a multiple dog household. If not done properly the other dogs may join in on the fun.

Am I trying to make too much of this? I am trying to understand the why, like you guys mentioned instead of it just happens. OOpps, I should do this before we do the training, I'm usually around other knowledgeable trainers? that know more then I do.

Ahhhhrggh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes you are. This is training and the reason a dog does it is variable. But, beyond this WHY. WHY, in the world are you training this archaic crap!!!!
The dog jumping, exiting, having a remote open a door to a dog conditioned to come out of the vehicle is a huge!!!!!, repeat, a huge problem!!!!
I thought this had all but died a timely death.
The only reason that a dog should come out of a vehicle is to come to you. If you use the dog as a personal safety device w/ a remote door opener, then it should be trained to come to you. It should be trained to come to you, find you if you're out of sight, but at all costs come to you. The motivation should not be to make prey, defend, or fight, to come out of the vehicle.
WHY?
a) The dog grabs the first moving, our excited target upon exiting the vehicle, cop, hysterical bystander, or kid on a tricycle.
b) The action will be where you are.
c) If you have rolled down windows and the dog comes out upon action, it could be two people in a fight in front of you (a misdeamner unless they are armed, often only a petty misdeaner, and usually they don't want to file charges)
d) If I'm out of sight and the dog comes out and starts hunting a bad guy, who is to say who he'll bite.
e) The dog exits and blindly crosses the street chasing asuspect and crunch...PSD becomes road pizza.
f) Increases the dog's barking in your ear while dealing with people in front of your unit and it becomes a pain to talk on the radio.....years of it and you have to ask everyone twice the same questions because you cannot hear worth a crap anymore.
Please, teach your dogs to come to you, then from there create scenarios which rarely include handler defense.
ONE OF MY SOAP BOXES

Thanks Richard. You answer reflects my initial thoughts about this.

I should have mentioned this was about 7 years ago while in school and is not a method I endorse or practice for the very reasons Kevin mentioned.

The question and the dog handler came to us because his department sent him with the question to why.

Since interested in the reason as much as I am the solution, we took some time to learn about it. While this the technique maybe now archaic, the lesson and knowledge about the biting dog is still valid and should be discussed I think.