I need some help from scent detection guys/gals that train for very specific indications from their dogs on explosive devices.

Some background: From 93' to 99' I handled a drug dog(my 1st dog)and we, like most everyone, trained to get the dog to go to the source and dig it out, scratch at it, etc.

In early 99' it comes time to replace my first dog and I decide to change to an explosives dog. Not having any experience in explosives, I trained to allow the dog to indicate/confirm "in the area" of the explosive device. "In the area" meaning 3 to 5 feet in a room type setting and a whole car parked amongst other clean cars. Reason being I'm trying to keep the dog from disturbing the source like a drug dog would.

My Problem: My area has always had a much greater number of drug dogs compared to explosives dogs. Of the few explosive dogs that were around there was little or no cross training with the local Bomb Techs/Team. Recently we have begun to change that and I have learned that the Bomb Techs want a VERY specific indication from the dogs. Some examples: A dog confirms on a desk. Is the explosive in a drawer, in an envelope on one side of the desk or a package on the other side? A dog confirms on a wall containing mail slots. Is the explosive in Mr. Adams slot or Mrs. Jones slot?

The reasoning behind this is they do not want to x-ray 3 things when they can x-ray 1 thing.

My 2nd problem: Slowing my dog down to get this detailed is causing false hits. He seems to be interpreting my calmer more detailed searches as a wanting for him to confirm by sitting. It is VERY possible that I haven't given him enough time to adjust BUT I do not want to screw him up in the process.

My Questions: Is this detailing realistic and/or consistent with other Bomb Teams? Can anyone help me with adjustment steps for a dog like mine?

Thanks in advance <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Mark Oliver
Wants to know everything about PSD's but knows he never will!

My Questions: Is this detailing realistic and/or consistent with other Bomb Teams? Can anyone help me with adjustment steps for a dog like mine?

It sounds like you train in a secondary reward fashion. To explain...the dog thinks if I find the odor and respond to it the way my handler wants I will get him/her to give me something I like.
Normal training seen in places like DoD, and many programs with roots to it.
This alone will give you problems.
The alternative method is the primary reward system where the dog believes that his actions flushes the little animal (the bomb in this case) out so he can capture it.
The big difference here is that the dog that sees a sit in odor as the way to get a toy from you (secondary work)is much more prone to figuring out that you have a hard time knowing if the dog is in odor when it sits and if it is at source. Makes falses go way up, so does slowing down with such dogs although speeding up often tends to have them missing if the handler blinks and doesn't see the odor change of a find.
To solve this set of cascading problems which was really propagated when you allowed and encouraged the dog to indicate at the edges of a scent cone you need to retrain using the primary reward method.
This may be the subject of an upcoming video that ed and I have discussed.
One suggestion I will make is that you attend the workshop in Albuquerque next month. The USBP will be sending instructors and this is the way they train as well as I train for narcs and explosives, and all detector disciplines.
the seminar can be found at
http://patroldog.net

M Oliver

Training the dog to give a passive response to as close to source as possible is really no differant than training the aggressive response, except of course the dog sits, points, downs or whatever the final response is going to be. The key is that you reward the behavior you want. If your dog is giving you a fringe response, then chances are you've reinforced that behavior. Hold the reward, don't use additional commands such as show me or where is it, just repeat the original command that you use to intiate the search behavior in the first place. Don't worry about what the bomb techs say. They have thier own procedure and will follow it regardless of what the dog does. In a real life situation depending on the locations of suspicious packages or boxes etc, the truth may well be, "this is the best I can narrow it down". They have thier procedures and will follow them anyway. One suggestion I, talk to your bomb techs and learn the procedures they use. It can help you refine your training to assist them in the best possible manner. All our explosives dog handlers are bomb techs, so EDT handling and Tech procedures are quite highly refined. Again, there is no magic to it. Reward the dog for the behavior you want. And this is only accomplished through a dedicated training program, that attempts to simulate scenarios that are actually encountered. Any EDT dog handler working should, as a minimum, be trained in explosives recognition, and search procedures.

DFrost

Thanx Kevin, DFrost for your time.

Kevin: My dog searches for tug of war with a towel. I think "primary reward method" would be what we call self rewarding, is that correct? If so, I know where you are coming from. Would you let the dog really get after the find to get his towel or go for concealment with easy access?

In reference to the seminar it falls into the "I wish" zone this year. I'm detailed to a K-9 Basic school for our newest team running from August to November. They'd shoot me if I even asked <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

DFrost: Yes I messed up and reinforced that behavior. Have you been standing over my shoulder in training this week <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ? I started to try "show me" and "where is it" because I know a guy who does. Any comment on why you don't like that would be appreciated.

In reference to consulting the Bomb Tech's that is what got this whole thing started for me.(see original post) We recently trained with them so we could find out what the dogs could do to best help them. We did full scenarios where we went in first and located the bomb(s) and came out and briefed them as best we could. They suited up etc. and went to work. What it boiled down to is they want detail to the nth degree. I'm trying to accomodate them and change my dog.

In reference to handlers being bomb tech's that has been brought up in NYS recently. From what I understand it was debated heavily and the people on the side of not doing it are winning. Reason being they fear smaller departments would be left out due to monetary constraints.

In reference to handlers recieving training in explosives recognition and search techniques that is high on my list for 2003.

Thankyou again both,

Mark O.
Wondering if I should have done another drug dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mark,

Two things. 1. Having worked with bomb techs all over the US and from several different countries, you will never satisfy them. And without discussing too much technique, regardless of what the dog does, a conscientious bomb tech will not violate procedure irrespective of what the dog does on the search. They have to understand, the dog is a tool, a very effective tool, but not perfect. In reality, high tech x-ray is not always definative either. 2. The reason I don't use other supportive commands such as show me, or where is it, particularly in cases where the dog is responding to fringe, you have already taught the dog to search using a command. The correct behavior for that command is to search, detect, and respond as close to source as physically possible. Source is identified as the location of the strongest odor. That does not always translate into the exact location of the target itself. If the dog has responded on fringe odor, he has not correctly performed that task, anything other than the command to complete that task is reinforcing that behavior. In time, where is it, show me etc becomes the prelude to recieveing the primary reward, which in itself is reinforcing the very behavior you are trying to eliminate. I know those are a lot of words, but training is not all that difficult. You reward the behavior you want. A basic premise in any conditioned response is: Any behavior that is reinforced, is more likely to occur again. Unfortunately that holds true for behaviors we don't want as well as the ones we do want. I know it goes without saying, but these are the things that have to be identifed in training and corrected during training. During a search is the last place you attempt to work out a behavior problem. And no sir, I wasn't looking over your shoulder, however it is not an uncommon problem, particularly in explosives detectors. One of the things that can cause such a problem is training too often with unrealistically small amounts. When the dog encounters a larger amount the "fringe" may be what he has been conditioned to find, rather than determining where the strongest odor is located. We may be use to working drug dogs on 1/2 ounce, very few IED's would be constructed with just 1/2 ounce of C4 for example. Good luck, i'm sure with some good dedicated training you will be able to correct your problem.

DFrost

Very good points thankyou. You're right I can fix it with good training. I just like input whenever I can get it.

Mark O.