Hello to all,

I've continued my traing with Pilgrim with the three rifle bullets. Over the last two weeks he has searched for the bullets once or twice each day and he finds them each time, even with distractions now. I always train for success and I'm beginning to feel pretty sure of him, so now I'd like to move along.

I scrolled through the replies to my previous post, but was unable to find the reference to the gunsmith's hand rag that one writer spoke of. I've asked a friend to get just such a rag from the shop where he works.

I'd like to hear more about this training method. Do I avoid contact with the item? Should it be kept stored in any particular manner? Do I introduce it to the dog with a keyword such as "mo"? This is the keyword I've been using with the bullets.

As always I'm eager to have responses from any experienced handlers/trainers.

Kirk

Hi Kirk, I remember reading that post as well but

I couldnt find it again either. The idea with the rag as I was taught is that when you train to detect firearms aside from explosives your K9 will hit on the OILS used on the weapon as opposed to the gun powder. The rag should be treated same as anyother training material. I usually wear latex gloves ( hospital type ) and keep them in a zip lock bag or sealable container to keep from contaminating the rags. I would also see if you can get a fresh rag with the oils on it from the gunsmith or even see if they will give or sell you some oil and rags which you can make your own hides from remember not to cross contaminate. Good Luck

I mean I keep the RAGS not the Gloves in the ziplock bags. I guess I should proof read before I reply.. lol

Thanks james.

I'd sure like to hear from some others on this hand gun detection topic!

Many of their comments have helped me and Pilgrim along and he is doing very well.

Until I've a better idea of how to handle the rag I will continue reinforcing the proper alert for a find.

I thought I'd use the rag in a classroom. The dog and I'd be in the room during period shift and greet the students as they come in.

I could set it up where one student retrieves the rag from the plastic down the hallway and conceales it, trying to pass the dog.

Since I've trained the dog to alert to the ammo I may as well continue with that cue "mo" and begin using the rag.

I may say "mo" to the dog as the students come in.

I understand the use of the cartridges, etc, but when considering the odor profile of what you are looking for, I don't see how a rag plays in. I understand the gunoil, but why introduce an odor that isn't necessary. The odor profile would consist of the; a weapon, cartridges, expended powder, unfired powder, the metal of the weapon, bore cleaner, oil, ie Breakfree, Powerblast, Hoppes etc. I just dont see the need of introducing the wrag as part of the odor. I understand there is oil on the rag, but the rag is still there. have you considered using clean rags, ensureing no trace of gun oil as a proofing mechanism? Just a thought.

DFrost

In my experience, when weapons are hidden away for any length of time they are often wrapped in oiled rags.
My dog also indicated on an empty Hide because of the oiled rags, true, the weapons were gone, but Intelligence were able to watch the hide for movement.

David, Steve, thank you for your contributions.

I think the idea of using the rag as a training tool is a good one because, it's safe, unknown purpose to anyone but the dog and me, and it has all the oders associated with a hand gun in one item.

I now have possession of the rag, double wrapped in ziplock baggies. The fellow who gave it to me said several guns had been wiped down with it, and he held it in his hand as he fired a pistol several times before wiping down that gun as well.

I've got the dog conditioned to respond to finding the bullets. He's doing very well with that. Tonight he showed the best, most positive alert to date.

Do I add the bullets to the baggie with the rag to aide in the introduction of the rag and continue to use the same search command, "mo". It seems this would reduce confusion and help the dog associate the combination of odors.

I read the guys wrote that they now often train narc. dogs on all the different drugs at once, rather than starting with weed and moving along one to another.

Best thing with the rag is that I can take it in the schools where I'm teaching, set things up and have the students unknowingly help me to train the dog.

Either way will get you started but you need to run 100% scent article at some point. The combination can help transition of scents as long as you have not proofed the dog in a way that he ignores all foreign scents that are combined with the scent you want him to find.

K. Simon in PM - "Thanks for your reply.

I don't understand what you meant to 100%....
Any thing you would share would be appreciated."

Kirk i placed this for all to rad because the value of a forum is to share ideas and allow people to take a crack at new ideas or ones they think are bad,

My answer:
I think your best bet is to use not a saturated rag but a barrel swab that is used use to clean out gun barrels. They are small and compact and train with the actual swabs that have cleaned a weapon. This will teach multiple scents at once - carbon, gunpowder residuals and gun oil. I call the swabs “wet” finds because they are a combined with gun oil. You would want to have dry finds also that are the components of your search orders and keep them wholly separate.

I would keep gun swabs that have NO contamination to proof the dog away from stand alone swabs and their natural scent. It may not seem important but it is.

Here is another example of my methods diverging from some peoples standard practice: I Cross-contaminate my scent everywhere so I don’t need to worry about tongs and gloves and keeping my scent off finds and such. It makes more sense to do this for not only practical reasons but it teaches the dog not to lie or really on me accidentally giving the find away based on the presence of my scent.

So before I place any finds or contaminate my hands with a any of the targeted scents we will be training with I touch my hands on the training location and good spots where a find “could be” based on the dog’s experience and conditioning. This teaches him to ignore my scent because my scent can lie. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The 100% is just a percent given to any combination of scent finds. Example a cleaned weapon would contain a higher percentage of oil vs. gunpowder residuals and carbon.

To be honest, I never trained my dog with a rag, so I can see David’s point of view.
I only ever used weapon parts and oils Terrorists were using at the time. Although as I stated earlier my dog found a hide in a back garden. 1) Because the hide had just been disturbed. 2) Because of the scent of the oiled rags. 3) The Scent the weapon left behind. (M60)
If you have access to weapon parts, then stick with the weapon parts, but be versatile, i.e. use weapons that have been fired recently, use weapons that have not been fired recently, change the oils, a lot of people do not use gun oil, use dry weapon parts. The list goes on. It really depends on the situation and the environment you are training your dog to working in.
If it is possible, it is best if someone else hides the parts, ideally different people all the time, you stay away from the area until the search.
I am not familiar with the method Dennis uses, but if it works, it works.
If you use ammunition, change it as often as possible, if you use any of the ammunition with the rags, do not put them back with the uncontaminated ammo.