I want to begin this by saying it's not a flame and I'm not trying to imply that I'm a great dog mind, breeder or trainer. I have read many posts on this board about training and some on breeding. If their are so many really good dog trainers around and great dogs being bred then why do police departments continue to use imports? Why don't these breeders train and trainers breed? Why if we have all this new and better way to train dogs don't we start them as pups and rear them up and then sell them to police departments instead of letting the europeans line their pockets? How many people out their really raise up a true psd?

There are several reasons, some valid some not. I have seen reported by several trainers that less than 10% of of puppies bred from good dogs would meet the quality required for top quality PSD or PPD. I think the number is probably higher, but not raising to 50%. There have always been forces in the USA (AKC for one) that have a goal to eliminate working chacteristics in dogs bred in the US. I have seen quotes from the leader of one breed organization bragging that they felt responsible for limiting the qualities required for good working dogs.

A second problem is that it takes a minimum of 18 months to raise a puppy to working status, that is a lot of time and money to invest in a long shot (10% acceptable). So if you get a puppy you need to wait to at least 1 year to determine if you made a good choice, made the expence of raising and training a puppy, and now being forced to start over. That is with out talking about who will raise a nonproductive puppy (untrained, non-working). Most Departments are not willing or able to make that kind of time and expense commitment.

Cops tend to be creatures of habit. Adminstrators even more so. If you have been told over and over that American bred dogs are not going to be successful, all your friends are getting dogs from Europe, the dog is already trained, it sounds like a good deal to me. There is a prestige factor involved also. Which sounds better "My dog came from Joe on Main and third", or "My dog is imported from top working lines in Holland"?

The deck is stacked against American bred/trained dogs. It got that way by a lack of attention and effort by American Breeders (breeding for show only), and buying in to the idea that a working temprament is a liability not an asset. By the way some of Ed's articles suggest the same thing is happening in Germany.

I see your point as far as police departments breeding and training. My reference was to working dog kennels and dog brokers. I have personally watched the chaos involved when a k-9 department is started, and it is a very expensive and PR nightmare to say the least. My question is....If we breed dogs that come from working k-9's that have come from working k-9's and are from a repeat, tested breeding then our numbers should go up. Or the breeding should never take place again. When we import all the advertisements indicate that they get the best that country so and so has. We as Americans import dogs by the train load each year. All of which I have mentioned have been hyped to the max. This has taken place for years and where are the progeny of these elite imports to be found? Are we getting what europe wants to sell? We are the greatest country in the world and we are still led astray when it comes to dog training and breeding. No one can touch us as far as cattle but dogs are a different story. Do we have in North America trainers and breeders that are capable to breed, rear, and train a highly functional animal to use on the street and in our breeding programs to sell to our military, police departments, and civilians that go unnoticed because of the big import hype. We need a unified effort that is on;y seen rarely in this country to change this mess. However, read this board and see the responses that people with a different opinion receive. We are along way away.

I suspect one of the reasons is the cost. Cost of the dog, cost of raising it, the time involved in training it, and our cost of living compared to some other countries. Add into that the risk factor of raising/training the pup, and it makes sense for brokers/depts to be purchasing an imported trained (or at least started) young adult. In some of the countries that these dogs are imported from, 1000 US $ is a LOT of money (I'm talking profit, not what they are selling the dog for). It's worth it for them to take a pup, raise it up, train it and sell it. For me to do that with one of my pups, I couldn't make nearly enough profit to make it worth all the hours of my time that I put into it. I could do it as a hobby (ie not for profit, don't count my time in the $$ end of things), but then why would I want to get rid of a dog of that caliber.

Prizgard1204,
I agree with you. ALl of these dogs that are imported with the big titles and bloodlines, why is it that the same dog over in Europe will produce Police dogs but when it comes to the States it is rarley ever has a pup that was later raised as a Police dog, or Competion dog. I mean we have people that are capable of performing life or death operations in this country, cattle is second to none etc. but we cannot raise our own dogs?? I believe it has to go to the thought process and re-eductation of people. What might have been true a few years ago, may not be today, with all American dogs aa a general rule cannot do work. With that said, there is a money issue, as far as impoting a dog. I believe we get the shit sometimes that they don't want over there, but it is cheaper to inport then raise a few dogs and turn a profit at the end of the day. It is also more profitable to sell a pup then raise an adult and then sell it. Take Ed for example, his pups sell for $1800.00, the most he will get is about on average frompolice department, is $4000.00 when the dog is 18 months or so. HE would have to raise this dog, and perhaps it would not turn out then he would take a big loss and then maybe break even. People like to your not suppose to make money off of dog breeding, well maybe not but there is alot of work, to do, and very few people would not do it for nothing, and I believe that is the major reason why most of our dogs are imported, money and time, the things that make the world go around.

The ecocnomics issue is a real one that I agree with. However, read the advertisements for the dog breeders in this country, and see the claims they make. Our military has the time, resources, and man power to do this on a huge scale, but fail miserably. Look at the Czech border patrol, they supply their own needs from top to bottom. There are people in North America that train what they breed and breed what they have trained. They however, don't have some superficial title IE..SCH3 in the back of their stud dog and already they are the aim of someones negative propaganda. The police k-9's that I watch and have peronal knowledge for were imports. They came from a broker, and were sold for 7900.00. I believe that a pup breed to work no matter what the cost should show up some where in these American trials. I look through the scores on different working trials and see if I know the trainers and breeders of the dogs and to be very frank, they are imported dogs. Where are the progeny of these great breedings? It makes it very difficult for a novice like me to sift through the mess.

I agree. It is amazing that the miltary progarm has not done well. It is a big mess that I don't feel there is just one answer for. Econmices, and education I believe are the key. I have an import so it;s great. This way of thinking has to be changed. A good dog is not where he is from, but where you find him.

I will stand up for american breeders here. Many people involved in working dogs sports who are also breeders are doing a great job. Look at the pedigrees they're the same great dogs as are producing in Europe. The difference in what makes it to PSD's is in the structure of police canine programs. Handlers very often come into a program and last one dogs career. They then move on to other areas of departments. Raising a puppy to be a PSD takes some knowledge or at least committment. Most handlers don't know they'll be part of a canine program until they are selected by a departmental process. This leaves the only way to provide them with a dog is as a young adult. American breeders sell to who ever will buy the dogs for the most part and most buyers are committed to their dogs. There isn't a large working dog community in America that will sell young, correctly raised dogs. Most dogs are in pet homes. That leaves Europe (and very often the eastern block countries since the $$$ is worth a lot...even the German police use mostly eastern block gsd's) as the only pond with enough dogs at any given time to be able to shop on demand for a psd candidate. It is easy to spend a few days in germany, Belgium, or Holland and test a large number of dogs. It would be impossible to do so in America (unless maybe you have unlimited funds and a leer jet). There are great PSD candidates bred here that aren't raised appropriatly or not sold until too late in their lives to make it worth the purchase. Increase the number of sport enthusiasts, increase the competetiveness of the working sports, and increase the demand to produce more working pups and we'll be able to stay at home to buy our PSD's

I agree. It's simple economics--i.e. the strong dollar. Why buy from an American breeder when you can get an equivelant dog in Europe for half the price. Which brings me to a slightly different point. I think the internet has made it easier for the average person to locate European breeders. When purchasing a puppy you don't need a American broker. The internet has made the communication easier. I recently purcased a puppy from the Czech Rep. for half the price an Amercian broker wanted for the same litter.

I strongly disagree with John. Buying a dog from Europe is not a good idea for the average person. It's a good way to spend a lot of money and get a really poor dog. In the mid 1980's I imported about $250,000.00 per year in dogs - all from the same person. I still got a lot of crappy dogs - which is why I quit. I woke up one day and decided that life was to short to put up with these problems.

If anyone thinks they are going to send good money over seas and get a good puppy then you have a lot to learn. You will get the worst dog in the litter (why not - are you going to bring it back if it has a problem - NO !).

You have no guarantee on these dogs. So if you do not personally know the person that you are buying from you are going to get screwed. I bought a lot of puppies from Germany in the early 1980's NOT ONE WORKED OUT.

There are pleanty of good breeders in the states. Breeders that are honest and take pride in what they produce and warrant their dogs. Most of these people sell dogs for less money than I do. Maybe I should add a forum to this board on people who have had problems with imports and dog dealers.