I have often read about the history of the GSD
and most sources state that they are a relative young breed of about 90 years that was bred from excisting german sheepdogs.
That is all they state and it is rather ambiquous. I want to know about these dubious
creatures which our breed was bred from so I
can have deeper understanding into the collective traits of them.
Another point that is often stressed about
GSD's is that they are not so closely related to the wolf than most people think. I find that quite hard to believe coz apart from the
malamute and husky the GSD just looks like the
first cousin of the wolf. Their instincts to
form packs and their protective and prey instincts are also very wolf like.
Here where I live (In South Africa) the name
wolfdog and alsation(I hate that name) is more often used to describe GSD's.
But maybe this wolf sentiment thing is just a
romantic notion.
Anyway any comments or enlightenments will be
highly appreciated

For the history and development of the GSD, read Max von Stephanitz's book, *The German Shepherd Dog In Word and Picture*, that is the original authority.

I'll make this brief, because it's a very delicate topic where a person can get themself into a lot of trouble :rolleyes:

Max von Stephanitz created the first officially bred "GSD" from breeding a dog named Hektor v. Linkrsheim (whom he renamed Horand) to one of his best indigenous sheeptending bitches. Von Stephanitz purchased Hektor--for a great deal of money--at a dog show, because Hektor exemplified the kind of strength and nobility von Stephanitz sought in a stud. Hektor also was not a member of any recognized breed--he was an indigenous German sheeptending dog as well, and there were apparently dozens of varieties of those at the time. Purely working dogs.

I'll leave it to others to talk about the wolf blood, or lack thereof, in the GSD. Certainly the agouti (sable) coat, pronounced dentition, powerful jaws, and erect ears--not to mention intelligence--do seem to suggest a lupine heritage not too far in the past. Some have suggested that wolf blood was carefully introduced and reintroduced into the European working sheepdog stock to maintain the dogs' keen interest in sheep. Could be. A good herding dog certainly needs something of a predatory edge.

But don't believe any of the stories you may hear that someone "bred a sheepdog to a WOLF and got the German Shepherd Dog." Pure BS.

Pete Felknor

Anyone who thinks that wolves were close relatives to the first GSD that von Stephantiz chose is pulling straws out of their but.

I grew up in Canada. I worked by Hundson Bay for 2 years when I was young - in the bush - 100 miles from the nearest road. I never saw a wolf in the wild - just their tracks.

There is NO WAY that von stephanitz would have picked a hybrid for his foundation stud. Look at these pitiful animals that these red neck people are breeding today (Hybrids) Even hybrids with very little wolf in them are spooks.

I call hybrid's kid killers - because they are so screwed up in their head. If a wolf is one thing it is an animal that will do anything it can to avoid a human, cross that with a dog that has no fear of man and you get "one screwed up set of genes".

Read the articles I have written on these animals and the fools that breed them.

The only people who have met that claim GSD's are desendants of wolves are the Hybrid breeder. They want to bring some form of legitamacy to what they do.

The fact is that the first GSD's did respectable protection work. They would not have been able to do this if they were hybrids.

There is a "breed" of "dog" called the Saarloos Wolfhound which is said to be a cross of the German Shepherd Dog and a zoo wolf. In my opinion, this is nothing more than a hybrid. I agree that this type of animal should be banned and all living representatives should be destroyed as they are dangerous. I was attacked by a hybrid when I was 18, so I basically know what I am talking about. The website for this "breed" is http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/saarlooswolfhound.htm
if you wanted to look at it. It is FCI recognized. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Here in Africa we have the Cape Hunting dog or
African Wild dog. To create a hybrid with these animals and domestic dogs would be an
extreme sacriledge to the genus canis. I agree that the wild dogs and wolves are far removed in instinct from the domestic dogs and to cross a wild animal with a domestic animal is
really really stupid.
I think I must definately purchase Max von Stephanitz book. It is fascinating to see that
out of all mammals on earth the two that evolve together in syncronicity the most is man and his dog

A while ago I read of researchers who had done studies into the origins of domestic dogs. They took DNA samples from lots of different breeds and looked for commonality amongst the samples. (I dont know much about the intricacies of genetics so I dont know the exact terminology they describe these traces by, 'markers' maybe).

Anyway, they said that the idea that dogs eveolved from wolves is a myth. I think they said that dogs evolved from a different canid that is now extinct in much the same way that horses evolved from a species, Prezwalskis horses which nearly became extinct. I have read that the heavy draft breeds were developed from a different species of wild forest living horse than the light breeds.

I understand that wolves and domestic dogs will interbreed, do they produce fertile offspring? We dont have wolves in Aust. but lots of wild dogs. I know a guy nearby who has had 700 sheep killed this year, 300 ewes and 400 lambs, by wild dogs, some are dingos and some are dingodomestic dog hybrids.

Its a big job with steel jaw traps and 1080 bait to keep the suckers under controll. A bitch and dog killed a young boy up in Queensland a few months back.

Maybe someone else is familiar with this study re. the genetics. Im sure they said wolves and domestic dog have a different anscestor though.

As for the idea that wolves were used in the breeding of a stock dog ie the german shepherd dog who ever believes that has his hand on his dick. The last thing you want with a sheep dog is for it to start biting the sheep. On a cattle dog it isnt such a problem but its deffinitly taboo on a sheep dog.

I undertsnad that huskies, malamutes and the like are shocking for being stock killers,perhaps they have closer links to wolves.

For the most comprehensive book on wolves I have read so far. I would recommend you try to get Peter Steinhart's book THE COMPANY OF WOLVES. In it he pulls together all the older research with the current studies along with the emotional & political background of the times. It's an easy read and very interesting.

The dog was originally thought to have been descended either from the coyote or the wolf, but genetic research finally concluded recently that the wolf is the ancestor of the dog. The genetics of the wolf and dog are so close that it is not even possible to ascertain with any degree of certainty whether a wolf is a hybrid or pure in the wild any more. This is one of the big problems facing the people who want to reintroduce wolves back to the wild in areas where the wolf has been wiped out -- the endangered species law protects the genetically pure wolf but does not protect the wolf mixed with any dog blood. Bottom line is that it's seems to be virtually impossible to tell. And, yes, dog/wolf matings do produce fertile offspring.

Ellens comments are quite correct and yes they cannot slit the genetic link with dogs.
As for the dog/wolf hybrid,I owned one of these in the late sixties which was bred illegally in the UK and I never had any problem with it and its ability was far superior to the standard GSD.This dog was a full male and had an excellent temperament,he lived at home with us for twelve years,the problems may arise with the different types of wolf,mine was from a European wolf.Its also interesting to note that nobody including the vet ever questioned any connection with a wolf.

A wonderful book that addresses this issue about wolves and dogs genetic relationship is "DOGS" by the noted researchers, the Coppingers. They did a large amount of study on the herd guarding breeds, raced sled dogs, and worked with border collies. I had an oportunity to listen to Ray Coppinger lecture a number of years back and found him quite intersting. His collaberation with his wife on the book "DOGS" is simply refreshing. It gets away from the dogs are like wolves garbage and the old excuses about how dogs behave this way or that way because wolves are pack animals myth.