I hope this is the proper section to post my question(s), as I think I see a couple of areas it could go.
I have a one year old Dutch Shepherd male that I am working with (bite work, tracking, etc.) His father is a KNPV and FR titled dog. His mother is FR titled, so he comes from a strong working background.
I have the Bernhard tape: Training Drive, Focus, & Grip. My dog has excellent prey drive and good focus. It takes very little to make prey (he just has to see the object) and he fires up. However, his grip is weak. He will engage the decoy and hit the sleeve, but doesn't seem committed to the bite. It appears that at times if the decoy were to pull hard enough he would pull the sleeve out of the dog's mouth. It's as if he hasn't "turned on" yet, if that makes sense.
Questions: Am I expecting too much from a one year old? I have heard that DS and Mals. are a bit slow maturing mentally.
Any suggestions on firming up the bite?
Also, can I correctly assume that a one year old's bite will be different than a 16 mos. or 2 yr. old's bite?
I guess what I'm trying to say, is: Am I being impatient? Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.

>>It appears that at times if the decoy were to pull hard enough he would pull the sleeve out of the dog's mouth.

Why not make the dog miss or lose his bite. Try frustrating the dog more before the bite. Also wouldn't hurt to try frustrating him for a couple sessions and NOT giving him a bite at all (ie., tie out). Is he 'winning' the sleeve immediately? If he is...he may be anticipating...are you 'outing' him or 'outing him too often'??? You may try to put a bit more fight (from the helper) in there and stop outing him for a while (if you have been outing him)...There's a quite a few things which could be tried. Lastly, I'm not sure how mature this dog is but you could try to incorporate a bit of defense training along with your prey...again your decoy should have experience in this and be able to read the dog...if not...then don't do it. I personally like to wait a bit longer before I begin defense training.

Anyways, just a couple suggestions...

Brigita

People that have Dutch shepherds say they mature slower than mals.

As for the weak first bite, seing that your dog comes from parents that are from frech ring lines maybe it is genetic as in FR there is no emphases on full strong bite (as is in BR and KNPV).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that are dogs that you see in pictures that slam into helper (guy loses all his air and few ribs) but 'forget' to close their mouth.

Also, can I correctly assume that a one year old's bite will be different than a 16 mos. or 2 yr. old's bite?
Yes you are right about that but that is hapent not only becuse of the age but becuse of the experience that the dog have won over the time of training.
My sujjestion is that you must not hurry up with the dog go more slowly ,even if the dog seems very good.Is better to go slowly and build a good dog.

Now Ivan that's just not the whole picture. Let's be fair <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FR doesn't really allow for a full grip. Simple physics can tell you that. With those type of opposing forces...it's virtually impossible to give a full bite.

Furthermore in KNPV the decoy is stationary when compared to a FR decoy. They also present the bite. BIGGGGGGG difference. They also don't try to take points away from your dog but like the helper, are there to work every dog in the same manner. There are also many shallow biters on a stationary KNPV decoy...seen it many times. FR is the only recognized sport to incorporate true decoy opposition.

Only in BR and Sch/IPO is it mandatory to show a full grip--but that doesn't mean the others don't breed or train for it...In fact BR allots 25 points for this. However, in BR there is no decoy opposition and the arm/leg is presented and conducive to a full grip. I can guarantee you that if I put a superb BR or IPO dog on a French decoy...they won't be able to get one full grip. You can see many dogs from other programs where a full bite is important try to cross over to FR.

And yes, I've seen KNPV dogs forget to close their mouths as well and fall off a stationary decoy...

Furthermore the majority of Mals in KNPV are BR genetics as are the BR dogs in Belgium and IPO dogs in Germany. So that theory just doesn't wash <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

B

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brigita, i was not clear;

i did not mean to say french lines are bad (how could they be with that programme and those helpers?) only there is no requirement for full grip (ok, i see your point about being hard to get full grip). You said yourself that belgian rign gives 25 points for full grip so i'd say it is bred for it...

What do you mean by stationary KNPV helper?


And are not those french ring doggys all pray? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My showline dog has loads of "pray" drive. It sounds something like this: Oh God, it's the stick, please don't hit me, please don't hit me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My workingline dog has tons of 'pray drive', hes prays so much for the stick that i blast him with the e-collar until his eyes melt then bash him with the stick. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
works both ways

Hey Randall,
Miss Brigita gave some sound insight and suggestions, but without knowing what you're currently doing, training wise, it's hard to comment.

As background, I'd be curious as to the ancestry of your dog, there may be a genetic component there. There aren't that many KNPV/FR titled DS's running around, so I may be able to shed some light in this area, if you wish.

As Brigita said, using a little frustration can go a lonnnnnnng way in building a solid, hard bite. Fly-by's with the helper making the dog miss several times(dog is tied out/held by the handler) before presenting the bite is one easy way to achieve this.

I love the comment Ivan made about slamming the decoy and 'forgetting' to bite. We have a large DS in our group who seems to enjoy the hit more than the bite. He regularly slobber-knocks our poor decoy (usually me) into next week, then returns to add insult to injury by chomping some selected part of my prone, broken body! He seems to find this highly amusing for some reason.

Randall, Listen to Brigita, she is right. I dont know what kind of training methods you use and Im not questioning them, so I dont know if that is the result of the poor bite, but it sounds to me like a genetic thing. If Im not mistaken, the Flinks tape deals more with the calm grip than anything. I cant remember if he touches on the full hard grip. But his methods can apply, and just by encouraging the calm grip might help. But Im not sure this is the problem. You can do this by frustration. The more you pull the sleeve or toy out of his mouth the madder he gets and his grip will be better next time. I would not "out" the dog at all right now. I have learned that the out only confuses a young dog in bite training. First you teach him to bite and then you teach him to let go. I would go back to basics and tie him out, then tease him with the tug and give him a few run bys like Brigita said. Then you put him up. Do this for a couple of days without a bite and then slowly work into it, keep it short and sweet, dont tire him out. if he drops the tug or loses it, immedietely frustrate him and put him up.