Hello again,

I watched the video again last night and I had a few questions.

If I remember correctly, the purpose of having the dog come into your arms is to relieve stress and bond with the dog. The dog thinks you are going to take his toy and that makes him unhappy. So you gently pet him and tell him what a good boy he is. From "into my arms" you have the following possibilities

Going back into the walk
Playing tug
Going back into drive building
or outing the prey item (vary rarely)

I hope I got those correct. But the big question I had here was, when it comes to tugging. If the dog doesn't have a firm grip on the prey item, you're supposed to yank it out of his mouth. So, if you have him in your arms, then go into tug and you rip it from his arms--aren't you kind of destroying the thought that you aren't stealing his toy?

I know we're aiming for a super-firm grip where the trainer cannot rip the ball from the dogs mouth, and he must learn to have a firm grip on it--But I was just kind of curious how the dog thinks of this? Wouldn't playing tug seem to imply that you want to steal his toy?

Also, how would you go about handling a dog that is a little squirrely in your arms? Would you let him go or put up a little bit of a battle to continue gentle stroking and calm praise?

Last, for outing the prey item, is this different from training your pet to "DROP" something--I remember reading about trading food for the item in the dogs mouth---is this the same? Or is it necessary to grab skin and yank to get the dog to out?

I'm trying to gain an actual understanding of this type of training rather than blindly *attempting* to emulate the actions I see in the video.

Thanks in advance for all the insight.

I was confused on this point as well. Here is what I was able to cobble together, and if I am wrong, I am sure someone will jump in a correct me.

The paradigm that is always behind a lot of Bernhard's way of training is 'drive compulsion drive'. So when you are able to yank the prey item from the dog's mouth, you immediatly put the dog in drive again. But, for handler soft or handler sensitive dogs, if you see more chewing or avoidance behaviors, it is necessary to only tug on the prey item to set the grip, or even motion toward it and tap it. I would say, to minimize handler conflict, do what is minimally necessary to get the grip set (with some dogs it is yanking it from their mouth).

From the bit I know about pack behaviour, tugging with the prey increases competition for the prey item, but in this context, it is your toy, but you increase his confidence by letting him win. You are preparing the dog to compete with the helper in prey drive, and later defense. It is all about building a foundation of confidence with the handler first, imprinting behavior, and building drive.

A dog a little squirrely, HMMM I know about that! You have the dog in your arms only as long as as they are calm; if that is less than a second, fine, but build from there.

If you can trade food for the prey item, your dog is not ready for the out. If they will not drop for any reason, then they are ready for the out. Remember drive compulsion drive. If you flank the dog, he outs, don't end it there, you must put him back in drive. Never out the dog in the front position, it ruins the retreive. also, when you use compulsion, it must be fast, otherwise your dog will anticipate the out.

I have a few thoughts on this. Bernhard's training philosophy IS to teach a dog through drive/compulsion/drive. However in the beginning with a young dog there is no compulsion. The primary objective for a younger dog is to build drive and develop the grip.

Ripping the prey item out of the dog's mouth is simply a method to initiate drive again. It also teaches the dog to have a firm grip.

For handler soft dogs, sometimes a buggy whip is the answer. (Credit to Will Rambeau for this idea! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) My younger dog is a very tough dog with natural aggression and incredible grips, yet he is also handler sensitive. When he was younger I couldn't play with a ball on a string with him, because he wouldn't really go after the ball if I was holding it. I then tied the ball to the end of a buggy whip and PRESTO a whole new dog emerged. It removed me from being a source of conflict and brought his drive way up. I found that even tied to the end of a buggy whip, I could still rip the ball out of his mouth and he would chase it like a madman.

Now of course I don't need a buggy whip, and just last night my dog put a pretty damn hard bite into my shoulder blade because I moved the ball just as he leaped up for it and he grabbed me instead of the ball. He's much faster then his old man now!

Melissa is right about the "Into my arms" exercise. If the dog will only stay there for a second or two then so be it. You can gradually build up the length of time the dog will stay in the arms. With some dogs in the video, Bernhard doesn't even really hold them, he just gives them a quick pat or stroke, then immediately runs them again.

IMO, you really don't have to worry about the "Out" until the dog has a solid grip and will carry the prey item.

and just one more thing..........it's not always a good idea to just *RIP* the ball out of the dog's mouth. Sometimes it's better on the younger dogs to just take the string in your hand slowly and then start tugging, so you show the dog that your not trying to steal the ball, but that you just want to play tug with him again.

Ripping the ball from the dog's mouth occurs during the "Into My Arms" exercise. (I'm referring specifically to the Video.) 1 of 4 things happens when you bring a dog into your arms:

-The ball is ripped from the dog's mouth to iniate drive again.
-Dog gets calm praise, then runs in a circle again.
-Handler plays tug with the prey item.
-Handler flanks the dog to "Out" the prey item, and initiates drive again.

The point being that you don't want the dog to anticipate on his own what's going to happen next. The dog shouldn't learn that coming into the arms means you are going to rip the prey item away from him, so mix it up.

Thanks everyone. I also found some more information at the following link:

http://leerburg.com/qa-drive.htm#food

(pertaining to not only outing the prey item but also on "into my arms")


This is far from some guy just playing ball on a string...anyone else get dizzy trying to "make drive" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ken
I know that was a joke about getting dizzy but it brings up a great point that I didn't notice until I watched the DVD a few times. And was getting plenty dizzy.(There is so much you have to watch it many times.)
Anyway. Really key in on watching Bernhard foot movement. He isn't spinning around. The economy of motion on his part is beautiful. I can't describe it but really focus on it when you watch and try and imitate it. No more dizziness

I do see that he pivots and usually doesn't spin around in circles, although he does spin at least once when he was working with the dog whose owner was packing a pistol and wearing cammie bottoms and a black shirt.

I think I get dizzy from watching my dog closely while he's chasing, it's staring downward and turning my head left and right. But I'll be the first to admit that Mr. Flinks handles the ball on a string with a certain grace that makes it look way easier than it is. I'm glad I can't see myself because I'm sure I look like a complete retard trying to do this work....

A lot of spinning can be created by not having enough hand speed with the ball on a string. Footwork AND quick hands are the trick. If either is missing, your dog follows the kong and you have to keep turning to keep him from it.

Ken, just the of the entertainment you are providing for the neighbors! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />