I have been going through the Flinks tapes with my now 6 month old pup and I have a little problem. He does not understand that out means to drop the prey item. I have tried trading him and he is having none of it. I know I should have imprinted this with him a little earlier but this is where we are. Is the only other method for teaching the out the "flank". My understanding is that once the dog knows the command and refuses then you should flank as a correction and to induce the out. In this case the dog does not know the command so I am afraid that I will just be confusing him by fish hooking his side. Any ideas or thoughts about how to proceded would be greatly appreciated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

While some like the flank I can think of many other ways to do this. I'll start and others can join in. using a snappy choke type nylon collar use the gag response to get the out. Give the command, pause, gag, out. Play immediatly, repeat repeat repeat.
Games really suck when they are over to fast. give command, dog ignores, blow in his ear,dog drops tug, take tug, dog sits in crate thinking about the suckiness of it all. Next

will he trade for food?, if not then he is probably ready for the out, and you can do it by the flank, or ive seen others hold the dog 'into my arms' and pick its front legs off of the ground and and as the dog lets go of the prey item, and he will most of the time they will slowly loosen and drop it, say 'out' or 'aus' and eventually your dog associates the command with droping the object without compulsion per se. i think there are some articles on here about the out, use the search function as well.

Right after the dog outs, remember to quickly make Drive again, and then I only like to give the out command one time a week or so.

Will they really learn it if you only do it once a week? He will not trade for food. I am willing to flank but and I am sure he would spit the prey but I am just afraid that he will not understand the command and will only be spitting the prey item because of the pain. How many times should I expect to go throught this maneuver before he associates the command with the action?

Flanking really hurts, so would you let me stick my fingers into your armpit to teach you something? Seriously people flanking a 6 month old puppy is retarded. Think about what you are saying here, it is just a baby. I do out downs with my dog lots every day, so I would disagree that once a week is the deal. Remember we are teaching the out not beating the out.

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and you can do it by the flank

By doing this to out, you are conditioning your dog to out when he feels a little pain and discomfort. Among other problems you will have will be a dog that you yourself won't be able to touch just anywhere on his body. Also, the reaction you get looks impressive but really all you have is a dog that is fighting out of fight, those dogs if given the oppertunity will turn down the fight IMO. Personally I teach the out by grabbing the scruff, and I like this for a couple of reasons. I grab the dog by the scruff as it's mother does when she carries them. I hold him like that camly with the front paws just barely off the ground. I give the command to out, and keep repeating it until the dog or pup drops it, upon dropping it, I immediatly praise profusely, then have them retrieve or chase the item again immediatly, so they associate dropping it with more fun, and getting to play again. Also, the scruff doesn't hurt the dog, and IMO it gives them the feeling of you being the Alpha because that is how their mother carried and moved them and of course she was their first teacher, and disciplinarian, and they never felt threaten by her grabbing their scruff, I haven't had one yet feel anxioty by being held by the scruff. I feel it's more of a psycological dominance you have over them by using the scruff.

PS: this is way to many scruffs in one post, LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

the dog MUST be put immediately back into drive. i believe that if you watch the flinks video again, it says that when teaching the out the flank is used as an extremely fast distraction, he does this so fast that the dog doesnt know who did it or what happened, and all of a sudden it realizes that its prey item is not in its possession any more, hence the need to put the dog back into drive by giving it some misses followed by success soon after. i agree that the dog only has to out very seldom, in my opinion the pup should also down seldomly at 6 months, as far as once a week goes, it really depends on the level of the dog's temperment, and how far along training is, as well as age, and how often training occurs. for example if someone is working a pup a few times a week and they have a very high drive dog that is already possessive of toys or prey items, then more 'out' exercises might be warranted than just once a week.

simply put, if it was a bad way to do it, i doubt that bernhard flinks would do it with teams at his seminars and i also doubt that ed would have included that small part on the dvd he produced, however, that all being said i also think that every dog, trainer, and helper have methods that provide success at different levels for them, i would personally take the advice that my helper or TD gave me regarding any grip or out issues.

i also forgot to mention that six months is still very young, the video shows older dogs being flanked and pronged for the out.

First question, are you training your dog to work in Schutzhund?

Second, is the grip completely calm, arms exercise calm, no chewing, comes to you happily, willingly comes into the arms and STAYS there with no chewing, is able to sit in the come-fore postition with the prey item without conflict, and gaze directely into your eyes, and stay relaxed? Can you fast the dog for a day, and offer him meat, and he still won't drop the tug? And is not displaying conflict? Can you pick him up and carry him around the yard/training field, and his attitude is 'The world is right, I've got my tug!'? Does he work without conflict with a helper; ie, no avoidence issues, no defense, and stay in drive? Can you swing the dog off of his feet with the tug and he still maintains a good grip?

If yes, and yes to anything else you can dream up (balloons, clatter sticks, many people around, etc., all types of distractions); then the dog is ready for the out. I personally, would not really 'teach' the out until a little older, 'cause I like to use the e collar, but that is my preference. I don't think I am fast enough to flank, and I would have to ruin a couple of dogs in order to get good at it.

Be careful of training the out too early. You wind up with a lot more problems than you solve.