What is an acceptable level of maturity to undergo a full battery of service dog selection tests. At what point in a dogs training/maturity development can you perform a successfull muzzle test. (success= an accurate picture of a dogs desire and ability to engage a suspect in combat.) Now, I know that the more experience and maturity a dog has the better he may perform. How would you go about testing a younger dog with less experience and how would you rate his responses which may not be as strong as a trained dogs?

Also, if a dog has never been in muzzle, how harshly would one rate a dog that shows a lot of sensitivity to the muzzle. One more question- If you were planning to muzzle test a dog, is it wise to have the owner introduce a muzzle to the animal a few weeks in advance (to get him used to it).

Thanx in advance for ANYONE that tackles these questions. Super-dooper thanx, in advance, if any police service dog trainers tackle it!

I'll give you my opinions and how I tend to do it. I normally will NOT test a dog under 16 mths. I'd prefer 18 -20 mnths for a better picture of the dogs ability.

When muzzle testing, If you have a dog with the correct combat drives, they should only fight with a muzzle when it is first put on, or after the fight. Most, if having the drive will forget it is on once they are focused on the combat. If they only focus on getting the muzzle off, and not onto the man, wash out. The dogs combat drives should over ride the want of uncomfortable feeling of having a muzzle placed on for the first time. JMO

Depends onn what you call a full battery of tests.
I will try to only test dogs in the basic police format of a stake out test, a search test, a environmnetal test, and a play test in a formal means when they are a minimum of 18 months.
Often, when presented with a young dog of 12 or 14 months I will do very abbreviated tests and return to those tests occasionally over a period of a few weeks to draw a good conclusion without stressing a dog during what could be a critical period

Hi Kev. Well you had to bring up the "stake out test" LOL. I'd agree with you on the testing you spoke of. I also want dogs at 18-20 mths, a stake out test, a agility(surfaces) and objects, retrieve, hunt and play drives as well. Also gunfire and just the way the dog presents itself in new surroundings and interacts with people. Sometimes, I think you get a good idea about what a dogs about and how they will be by just meeting them. It sounds funny to some, but I think you can look in a dogs eyes, look at body posture and attitude and have a fairly good idea what they are about.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So it is with dog trainers and dogs. Every dog is different and develops at various rates depending on genetics, experiences, and training. Some dogs are Schh III by the time they are two years old while others take longer. Certainly the best dog is the one who accepts the muzzle without any problems and immediately demonstrates a desire to engage the aggressive helper in a fight, then doesn't leave and/or has to be pulled away from the passive helper afterwards. Evaluate the dog in neutral situations also. Certainly having the owner accustom the dog to the muzzle prior to the test would be an advantage but then watch if this dog is really demonstrating aggression or just responding to prey/play training. If the dog has never been in muzzle before evaluate how long it takes for the dog to become accustom to it. Some dogs fight the muzzle just to get it off because they don't like being restricted. Others fight the muzzle to get it off so they can reach fulfillment by biting the helper; they haven't learned the difference between fighting and biting. And fighting and biting are not necessarily synonymous for this evaluation. There are many variables to look for. Improper muzzle training can also create a dog that is unbalanced in its drives.

Alan, your comments help thank you.

Kevin, I started this whole question about muzzle testing after reading your web site's SELECTION TESTING FOR THE SERVICE DOG. Are there specific things that one could evaluate in a younger dog, say 8-12 months, that can give an accurate picture of the dogs potential or is it a bad idea to look at immature dogs for selection? Also you stated in Test#3, Muzzle Test, "This test may be repeated in a suit for the dog who is intensely muzzle sensitive, in this instance the quality of the grip and purposefulness of the fight must be closely examined." Does the sensitivity to the muzzle have any correlation with the dog's nerve? If so, would you judge this in relation to the dogs experience with the muzzle, or other factors?

Josh, I hear you about the "look in the dogs eye" thing, but I'm not quite there yet man.

Thanks guys.

Using my “Stake Out Test” I’ve selected dogs for police work and personal protection. It’s available at Dr. P’s website at
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

Every one of those dogs properly performed on the street, including their first deployments when dogs are often hesitant to bite. I’ve tested GSD’s as young as one year and based on their response, did protection training with them. Those few that have actually been called upon to bite someone, did very well. When testing an immature dog you have to give him some slack in all the areas of concern.

The test has been discussed quite a few times on various forums. It never fails to bring out the worst in people who become polarized. They either hate it and don’t believe it has any value or love it and adopt it as their own.

I used it to select the dog I’m working with now. He’s very civil and won’t hesitate to bite for real, as a few people have found out.

The muzzle test introduces a few problems. One that’s been mentioned is that the dog may hate the muzzle and fight it. My own PSD was one of these and he was full of fight drive and performed well on the street, biting his share of people when it was appropriate. He had a few weaknesses and the muzzle was one of them. He’d fight for a few seconds and then try to tear off the muzzle. Another problem is that some dogs have come to associate the muzzle with man work and get loaded up just looking at one. That can give a false indication of what’s really in the dog.

I think the best test is one that doesn’t use any equipment at all. Then you can really see what the dog is made of.

If you like the test, feel free to steal it and use it. If you don’t tell me why. If you have suggestions as to how to improve it, please let me hear them.

Thanks for your response Lou. I have read your "Stake Out Test for Police Service Dogs" and I found it very interesting.

Oh yea..BTW.. Lou's ugly little new GSD will hurt you BAD if you test him. He was one of thoses dog you just have to look into his eyes and you KNOW what he'll do if you want to try it.

 Quote:

Originally posted by New England K-9 - Josh Lewis:
Oh yea..BTW.. Lou's ugly little new GSD

Now you're in for it. I'm gonna tell him you called him "ugly." Better watch out next time you visit!

Yarnall made the mistake of calling him "The Pipsqueak." Next thing you know Donn was on the ground. Little fella went for his knee and Donn was wearing scratch pants rather than a suit! Take THAT!!!!! How's the shoulder Donn?