I am a relitively young handler and agitator. Our club trainer comes from a police k9 instructor/trainer background. We were watching a video he had recorded of a 5 day seminar that was put on for k9 officers in the California area. They were putting the dogs through one part of a psychological test which involved having the dog on a back tie and evaluating it first without the presence of the handler and then again with the handler present. In both scenarios an agitator aproached with a stick from about 30 yards away. He took a few steps then stopped paused a second then continued, all the while maintaining strong eye contact with a very confrontation body posture. In the bad cases he broke off the attack before reaching the dog but in other case continued to within a foot of the dog while presuring the dog with threatening stick and body movements. I was amazed at the differences in the dog between the two situations. This has caused me to reevaluate my thinking on a dogs worth as a breeding animal and at what point does a dog become worthy of being breed.
In the two tests: the first without the handler present and the second with the handler present, the results were drastically different. The results ranged form dogs that were extremely confident, showing no sign of retreat to dogs that were hiding in the bushes behind the tie out. In every case the dogs performance was better in the second scenario with the handler present. The dogs that performed good in the first situation only got better but even the dogs that were hiding in the bushes without the handler were fired up and looking much better with the handler present. They still show some signs of nervousness but not one fled.
Now some of these dogs that didn't perform well without the presence of a handler are schIII dogs and other highly titled sport dogs from Germany sold to Police departments, for obvious reasons.
My question in all of this is at what point on a sliding scale from the dog that fled being a 0 to the dog that preformed the best being a 10 does a dog become worthy of being breed. Also, when looking at the different uses of a working dog,law enforcement and sport, do you breed 7's and 8's hoping for good sport dogs or do you only breed 9's and 10's hoping for the best dog possible.

You breed as close to 10s as you can possibly come. But the dog also has to have some 9 or 10s in other areas. Not just the fight drive. You want a dog like 9,10,10,9,8,10. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A better question: Does a SchH or HGH title make a dog breedworthy. I don't think so. You have to evaluate the dog in more telling ways. I don't think Schutzhund is doing its job in that area. Far better than nothing though. :rolleyes:

VanCamp,

No Schutzhund and HGH are no more a complete marker of breedability than a conformation title. No single test is a complete evaluation for breeding quality. It is a single measure by an independant source as to some of the quality of the dog.

Ok Richie, I think this is the "Selection Testing Dogs for Police Service Work" Thread. That is the point that I did not make very clear. Schutzhund title does not mean Police Dog. If you are breeding for serious work you had better be able to evaluate honestly the real capabilities of dogs in your program. Titles are just pieces of paper. Police work is the highest level of training out there. That is what working breeders should be striving for, among other things.

If you want to go into the total dog selection test for the VC/RC UBR then I'll start another thread in breeding.

Didn't I hit on the multiple evaluation thing with my analogy of 9,10,10,8,9,10 thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

9.9 for that test though, definately an area to be ruthless in selection.

VanCamp wrote:
Police work is the highest level of training out there.
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If you are referring to the importance of temperament by "level of training" I agree wholeheartedly.

But in my experience, the vast majority of police k-9's have not received as much training as a SchIII dog.

The typical P.D. k-9 is "barely adequate" in the training category even though they often are better quality dogs than those in sport work.

Its a fact...many P.D's put dogs on the street that have had only 4-6 weeks of any formal training.

As long as nothing serious happens for the first 6 months or so... they get away with it.

Dave- Somebody stop me if I'm wrong here but, I think that MOST PSDs are dogs that are converted from sport dogs. That is why they are only getting 4-6 weeks of training.
I think that next in line would be dogs that are selected and specifically trained by various vendors to be sold to PDs. These dogs are expensive and very well trained. I don't know of too many Departments that are buying untrained/unstarted dogs and training them. I don't know of any, actually. But, then again I'm not a Police dog trainer.

Now, I think that you are right about one thing, the overall training of a SchHIII dog is going to be more comprehensive. The obedience is far superior. But, police service training is, far and away, much more advanced and difficult in areas of bite work, and scenting. Schutzhund is easy in comparison. The level of knowledge and experience that you need in order to work on things like groundfighting or target training is much higher than what you will need in Schutzhund. Another point that needs to be made is that, yes, PSDs are of a higher quality than most sport dogs. That also means that in some cases they will require more experience in handling and training than a Schutzhund dog.

Police service dog training is the highest level of training that I know of, anywhere. Of course there will be exceptions, because PDs in this country are not even close to being standardized, but overall the training that goes into a good PSD is much more technical and advanced than Schutzhund training. It takes a higher level of understanding in areas of aggression and canine communication to work and train these dogs.

I'll play catch on a sleeve with any SchH dog out there, but put me on the ground in a suit, eye level, to the most fightinest dogs out there? I don't think so. . . no comparison. You had better know what the hell you are doing. 20 minutes and anybody can learn to catch a Schutzhund dog. (Sorry to all you SchH Helpers out there, myself included.)

So, to revisit my above point, police work is what working dog breeders should be using as their ideal. Dogs that have the temperment and drive to do police work. Out of those dogs you will find better SchH dogs and better protection dogs.

Van Camp wrote:
most PSD's are converted sport dogs
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Only a small percentage of PSD's are "converted sport dogs". In my area only about 2 or 3 out of 15.

Many departments refuse to work with any dog that was previously trained in sport work. Instead they buy "green" dogs with little formal training of any kind.

OK, If you say so.


I do notice that you didn't make any new reference to police work not being the top level of training.


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