I was just "suspended" from Rottweiler.net for voicing my views on rottweiler breeding. Now I know at times that I can be a bit provocative but I don't think I was out of line . Here is what I wrote and a email they sent me informing me of my punishment. What do you guys think?
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As I read the post on this board I have come to the conclusion that many of you that have the strongest opinions about breeding don't train your dogs. When I say training I don't mean a CGC, therapy, hearding instinct, TT. As many of you may want to delude yourselves, these titles just don't mean enough to evaluate a dog for breeding.

Both conformation and working abilty are important. But working abilty must ALWAYS come first. Working abilty is much harder to maintain in a breeding program then conformation. When you don't train and test you do not know what working attributes your dog has or lacks.

I am always hearing on this board about the health checks and how important they are. God bless the novice that makes a post about buying a dog who parents where not OFA, CERF, VwD and on it goes. But rarely does any one care about the mental health checks; SCh, Ringsport, NAPD, ZTP, UD.

I am quite aware that we all have different goals. But we all must breed within the standard. And the breeding of rottweilers is the breeding of working dogs.

Now if you think this is crazy, wait till I go off on my tirade on how all rottweilers should be willing to bite.
---------------------------------------------Rottweiler.net writes;

No, you’re not going to go off in a tirade of any kind, or at least not these forums your not. What you are going to do, should you decide to partake in these forums, is offer your opinion and/or advice in respect of other’s opinions and advice, the “key’ word being “respect”

I have no doubt you have a great deal to contribute to the breed, and that I respect. It is how you chose to contribute to this breed, that the moderators will address vigorously.

We are going to put an end to this “Holier then Thou” attitude, and we’re going to start with you.

I’ve suspended you for 5 days, should you chose to return once your suspension has been lifted, you are welcome to partake, within the scope of the rules and guidelines.

Chris,

Without knowing the dynamics of the board it is hard to say if the response was appropriate. If the board has been particularly nasty they may be trying to head off problems prior to it getting too bad again. It sounds like they may have a problem and have to start somewhere to correct the problem.

I would disagree with your post to a certain extent. This is an argument I get into on every board I am a member of. The working people go nuts that I think dogs should be shown in conformation, and the conformation people think I am nuts because I think the dogs should be trained in protection.

I am of the opinion that both are EQUALLY important. I will cite some examples, starting with the GSD. There are now 3 seperate breeds in the GSD (4 if you count the UKC White Sheperd). The same thing is happening in Giants, Labs, Setters, Pointers, and evey other breed with a purpose. That excludes the dogs that have lost there origional purpose all together (Std Poodle, most of the Terriers, Bassets, the sight hounds....).

If a breed organization would encourage a TT prior to breeding you would go a long way to correct this problem. The ATTS Temperament test will identify dogs with good working ability even if they aren't trained. It will identify guarding, protection ability and identify fear based behaviors. A working dog that has passed the ATTS TT IS willing to bite or they don't pass the test. I would agree that the CGC, therapy dog tests, or obedience titles only look at trainability. This is an improvement over not looking at anything, but I don't think it is enough.

They may be overly sensetive, and that may be for a reason. I have faced similar arguments on other boards...'round here they just tolerate my comments on showing, nod their heads and ignore me.

Richard-

We are not in disagreement about the conformation issue. In the second paragraph I state "Both conformation and working abilty are important." The problem, as I see it on that board, is that true working abilty takes a back seat to conformation.

This was posted in an area about breeding. And as I stated it is FAR easier to breed dogs with proper conformation then it is to breed dogs with working temperment.

Chris,

It isn't far easier to breed for conformation. In a recent litter I tested, both working and conformation lines, every puppy tested out good for working. Some better than others, but all trainable for work. Only 2-3 out of a litter of 9 will have any prayer in a conformation ring.

The conformation ring is so tight that a very small deviation will turn a dog into an also ran. In the conformation ring there is only one winner. In most protection work you will get the points and titles the dog deserves even if it doesn't win the trial. If only the dog that won the trial got points towards a title there would be much less interest in trialing (Kind of like the lack of interest in conformation?).

I don't believe that the current method of conformation showing is the best method, but it is what we are stuck with. If dogs were evaluated and granted a conformation title based on conforming to the standard, and then competing for a Grand Championship based on a winner-take-all competition there would be more interest in the conformation ring. That would improve all the breeds for conformation and may encourage the working people to enter more.

What I am very tired of is not being able to tell what breed a regestered dog is because it has strayed so far from the standard that it looks like a mix. Everybody tends to only look at what they are interested in and breeding based on that. The working people are no better about it than the conformation people. If people would only breed dogs that meet the standard for BOTH conformation and temperament the breeds would benefit and the number of litters would be greatly reduced. Lets face it half of the dogs bred in this country should never be bred.

I think the best way to look at it is this.....form FOLLOWS function.

I think the best example I can think of right now (before having my first cup of coffee) is the difference between American show line GSDs and German working line GSDs.
This applys to all the working breeds mentioned in earlier posts as well.

If the dogs aren't worked they lose the form to do so.........and vice versa. I personally look for sound structure and correct conformation for the working dog. That dog would probably never win in a conformation show of today.

I am talking generally here, there are exceptions to this.

Cindy,

One other point that most people don't think about is judges put up what is shown. As the show fanciers pick a chacteristic and exaggerate it to ridiculous extreams, the judges start to put that up as it is the only type of dog in the ring. If there was an option then the judges would more likely put up sound working types. The weight of momentum in the shift of the conformation is what ends up changing the breed.

This is one reason that I think it is imperative that dogs from good working stock be shown. If the GSD ring was turned from a short jog into a marathon, the working dogs would start to show better as the "show" lines couldn't manage to keep up the pace. The properly conformed dogs could move that way all day with no problem.

You are absolutly right, form does follow function. But if functional dogs aren't shown they will never win and we will be at the mercy of the "extreamists". The same holds true for the breeders of working dogs, conformation must be important. If the dog doesn't meet the conformation standard it should not be bred. By selecting only for working qualities the dogs tend to move towards a generic "mutt" appearance, and that changes the working chacteriscics of the breed. Using the GSD as an example, it sounds like when the GSD herds it does it from a farther distance than most of the other herding breeds. Belgians, Borders and others herd from up close. The GSD uses size and power to force the issue. The Belgians and Borders work by quick harrasment, staying right on top of the sheep and making quick short bursts and more of a nipping bite, then downing to stay out of the line of sight of the animals. This would account for the difference in size and body conformation. If you move farther east, the herding breeds are used more for protection than actually doing the herding. Those dogs are bigger still, built more for fighting with predators rather than just moving the animals.

The dogs will begin to conform more to the type of work being done. If the type of work leads to a preferance to a smaller lighter dog, that type of dog will be bred and the breed will change. As the Mal is used less for herding and more for Sport/Protection/PSD work the size of the dogs has increased. On of the imported Mals our PD has used was 110# working weight. The dog works more like a GSD than a typical Mal. He uses his size and power over quickness to do the work.

If we want to maintain the working breeds the way they should be they need to be used as they were intended and or in some similar work. The style of work needs to suit the breeds chacteristics, rather than moving the breed to fit the work.

I agree with Cindy that form follows function. Speaking of Rottweilers a friend of mine that I train with just won the Canadian Siegrin with his Rottweiler bitch. She is the perfect example of form and function. She was also the USA Siegrin and won the protecion dog competition against males brought in from Germany to win it. She is an amazing animal with excellent drives, good structure, great bite work, super conformation (her form fits the work) and a personality to boot. She's one nice Rottweiler and I would take her home with me in a minute. She'a great example of a dog that has form that follows function. Too many German Shepherds get away from this because the temperament isn't there to even think about doing the work. There's no purpose in a "working" dog to have such angulation. It serves no working purpose and in my opinion (and remember it's just an opinion) causes bone problems in the long run.

Delete the last sentance and replace your name with mine then post it again. That is my feelings.

Just as interesting aside there is a similar schism regarding conformation breeding or working ability in the horse world. A lot of halter bred (show) quarter horses wont work cattle any better than a clydsdale. People who want a competition q horse go for working lines.