What’s up with the German Shepherd Dog in America? I have been looking at the results of major schutzhund trials in the US and found myself very proud of US breeders and trainers. Most of the rottweilers that have won the USRC nationals have been US bred. The top malinois are home bred. But then I took a look at the German Shepherd Dog. The top dogs look like whose who of German and Belgian kennel names. How can the other breeders do it and the German Shepherd breeders don’t seem to be able to?

I think it’s all about the money. Let’s say you are a top-notch trainer. You know the guys I am talking about. The big names that are on the podium year after year. Most of these guys make a large portion, if not all of their income training, breeding and importing dogs for schutzhund. To stay in the limelight they have to have a great dog. For many reasons they can’t take a chance on a puppy. So they have to buy an adult dog. They can’t buy a dog breed by another US breeder because that would legitimize that breeder and their dogs. Why would Ben Newbie by a dog from Joe Schutzhund when he can by a dog from the same breeder that Joe got his dog from? Nope, Joe has to have something that Ben can’t find elsewhere.

If you think I am wrong you are welcome to your opinion. But answer these questions. Why is it that most, if not all, of the top trainers are trialing dog bred in Europe? Most of them breed. Why not train and trial they’re own puppies. Are their pups not as good as the pup bred in Europe?

I could really care less about what the next guy does with his dogs and business. But I do care about the state of working dogs in the US. We need to start support or native breeders.

The breeder of my current pup (from Alabama) purchased his bich for $18,000 from a top handler in Germany. I know money isn't everything... but...

How many Americans are willing to put that much money into a top bitch? A well known kennel hear in Michigan just had 2 litters and sold the Dams later for $1,500. What does this say about the quality of these females?

According to the Alabama breeder-- our biggest problem in the USA is the use of "mediocre bitches"-- Many breeders feel they have to make money on the first litter.

Your point is well taken about the "top handlers" though. It is possible to find a great dog here in the USA -- ask the breeder where he/she got the Bitch and for how much-- ask him if he'd be willing to take $2,500 for the Dam -- the answer may speak volumes.

Christopher Smith wrote:
*****Why is it that most, if not all, of the top trainers are trialing dog bred in Europe? Most of them breed. Why not train and trial they're own puppies. Are their pups not as good as the pup bred in Europe?*****

Chris, I think that their pups may be as good or as bad (statistically) as those bred in Europe. They are not buying pups but usually titled or green (proven) dogs. Competing on a high level and serious breeding are not mutually inclusive. Top competitors may breed their top dogs because there's always demand for such breeding, but it doesn't mean that they often produce desired results. IOW, they are buying top scoring dogs, not necessarily top producing dogs. For example, if you buy a Sieger you can pretty much be assured that he'll produce a preponderance of top conformation dogs, since Siegers are chosen not only for their individual conformation, but for the number of progeny, i.e. for their prepotency. I doubt that such criteria can be applied to competition dogs.

To develop your own line of top working dogs takes dozens of years of hard work and dedication. There is no instant gratification, which is something our generation is so used to. On the other hand, breeding GSDs to SV standards is relatively new in this country. Not only do we lack the European tradition, but the size of the US doesn't help either. It is nearly impossible for a breeder to keep tabs on his/her litters especially since most of the pups end up in non-working homes. So who knows how many great working genes are gracing someone's couch as we speak <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ?

*****They can't buy a dog breed by another US breeder because that would legitimize that breeder and their dogs.*****

Whether that's true or not is debatable. That depends on how you define the term "breeder". If we are talking about two large competing kennels, then maybe you got a point. But if we are talking about another top competitor who happens to own a breeding pair that clicks, why not?

*****We need to start support or native breeders.*****

I think this is already happening, maybe not at the top, but definitely in the middle echelons, usually among people living, training and competing in the same geographical area. These people often buy from other club members or members of other clubs, usually after observing more than one or two litters from the same stud/bitch, as they mature. This is how it's been done in Europe for centuries with all the working breeds.

Maybe we just need more time?

****Why has it not taken as long as with the Mals and Rotties?****

I know as much about Mals as I do about Rotties--next to nothing. But from what little I know about Mals based on SchH trials, most of them come from the same source, so maybe we are talking about one very good breeder--an exception rather than a rule.

As far as the Rotties, from what I've learned from this forum alone, it is very difficult to find good ones anywhere in the world, while good GSDs are readily available.

Originally posted by Renee Felknor:

I know as much about Mals as I do about Rotties--next to nothing. But from what little I know about Mals based on SchH trials, most of them come from the same source, so maybe we are talking about one very good breeder--an exception rather than a rule.

As far as the Rotties, from what I've learned from this forum alone, it is very difficult to find good ones anywhere in the world, while good GSDs are readily available.

I agree that Ot Vitosha has made a mark in the US. But even if you remove them from the equation Mals are still doing quite well.

When I wrote about rotties I was writing about Rottie only trials. When you look at the winniers they are mostly home grown.

Kevin just answered alot of my questions in another thread. Thanks Kevin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kevin Sheldahl Writes:

...First, the system in the U.S. is way too difficult to utilize in any real breeding program. Since to follow the rules the minimum is a B, AD, a "G" rating in a show, a schh I, and two korung's, and a hip x-ray rated under the German system. This isn't a problem when you have these things cropping up in your back yard every weekend. Try doing it with a large enough number of females that you have bred to produce your own line of GSD's. Hell, after that much work on a bitch she could produce chipmonks instead of puppies and most people will just keep on breeding her. Or, as it seems most people in America do, they just buy someone elses rejected female from Germany and use her since she has all the prerequisites, and once again, she could produce chipmonks but they'll keep breeding her because of their investment in the bitch.
The ability to test your production and move onto better producing females is the key to a successful program.
Ed and I visited one of the top producers of malinois in the world in Sept. They have NO titled females, yet their kennel name (and the name of their predicesor with the same stock) is so well represented in working events they over shadow everyone else. the dogs are healthy, and strong working dogs. The ability to adjust your program to suit the goals quickly and effectively should not be underestimated.
The SV system is being abandoned by the police dog breeders in Germany's state of Northrhine-Westfalia. I wouldn't put too much stake in those that want to strictly adhere to the SV program in America.....they usually use it for status and sales not to develop a line of GSD's that produces working individuals with some degree of predictability.
In fact, I believe that the United SchH Clubs of America is lacking our own breed worthiness sytem. One needs to be developed where interested parties can show up with their breeding females and obtain a breeding license in a weekend. Maybe something modeled after the old DDR system or the Rottie ZTP? I don't think that USA should abandon the SV program for those that want to use it but it is just not functional in America. just my two cents.

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Kevin,

Very interesting post. Can you describe the ZTP and DDR breed worthiness tests, and why you think these are superior to the ZV breeding system? Any other thoughts you can add to test breed worthiness would be appreciated.

Incidentally, my experience with GSD breeders in America who follow the SV breeding system does not mirror yours. Certainly the fact that Germany has 10 times as many clubs where a dog can be SchH trained as America does, in a country the size of New Mexico, makes following the SV system difficult and perhaps impossible for many American breeders. But you said the SV system is "way too difficult to utilize in any real breeding program". *Any* real breeding program? Perhaps you can define what you mean by "real". As an example, a good friend of mine raises, trains, and SchH titles bitches from her own breeding program. Her last litter produced 2 dual purpose police service dogs, an operational SAR cadaver dog, and an assistance dog for a disabled person. Isn't that "real"? Also, using my friend as an example again, she has another bitch that she raised and trained to SchH3, FH, but will not be used for breeding because of a conformation flaw. This tends to contradict your statement "after that much work on a bitch she could produce chipmonks instead of puppies and most people will just keep on breeding her". No doubt you've seen more examples than I have, and perhaps my friend is an exception among American GSD breeders who follow the SV system. But this is more typical of what I see than your description.

Incidentally, you said that the under SV breeding rules "the minimum is a B, AD, a "G" rating in a show, a schh I, and two korung's, and a hip x-ray rated under the German system." Actually, under SV minimum rules, neither the dog nor the bitch needs to be breed surveyed (korung).

Finally, you said of the SV breeding system "Try doing it with a large enough number of females that you have bred to produce your own line of GSD's." No doubt, that would be difficult. But that's part of the point. The SV breeding system is intentionally and deliberately designed to discourage large scale breeding.

Laura Sanborn

Or, as it seems most people in America do, they just buy someone elses rejected female from Germany and use her since she has all the prerequisites, and once again, she could produce chipmonks but they'll keep breeding her because of their investment in the bitch.

Amen to that. I have also seen a couple of breeders that will instead of continuing to breed the female themselves, pass her off to some unsuspecting newbie as a proven producer (meaning that she isn't sterile).