This is something that has been confusing me a bit... I am aware you cannot start a dog in defense too young.... but, how about raising a pups defense level if the threat is towards its handler/area/yard etc. I am not talking about very young pups but from say 6-7 months on??

Would this safely raise their territorail instincts without stressing them very far as the threat is towards the handler/area and not themselves, it strkes me that very young pups alert to unusual sounds in the house which I imagine is their defense srive kicking in!!

I apologise if this question has no point!!!

Cheers

There is only one answer to this - NO YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS!!! A young dog looks to the handler for protection - just as members of a wolf pack look to the alpha wolfe for protection.

You said "I am aware you cannot start a dog in defense too young...."

The fact is if you want to train your young dog set the foundation in prey before you add defense. The only dogs that are started in defense are those without prey - and frankly these dogs should never be trained in protection work. The stress of the work will cause health problems.

Godfrie Dildhi did his stupid vidoe on starting young dogs in defense behind a fence - Godfrie has a lot to learn about dog training.

Some young dogs can be worked in defense. However, the mistakes that can be made outweight any benifit in doing this approach. There are top trainers that have the skill to read young dogs to prevent these mistakes from occurring and a benifit can be gained by the young dog. Unless you are working with such a trainer then more than likely you will create a life long problem.

There is just a very narrow threshold between fight and flight. And that threshold is extremely narrow with a young dog.

Originally posted by Orv Story:
Some young dogs can be worked in defense. However, the mistakes that can be made outweight any benifit in doing this approach. There are top trainers that have the skill to read young dogs to prevent these mistakes from occurring and a benifit can be gained by the young dog. Unless you are working with such a trainer then more than likely you will create a life long problem.

There is just a very narrow threshold between fight and flight. And that threshold is extremely narrow with a young dog. While I agree with most of what you say. The thing is, a young puppy needs to have the mental facilities to build defense drives in true confidence building way. A young dog does not have the experience or the threshold tolerance that comes stable and directed training that is progressive and started in prey.

Even though a trainer may have the apparent ability to work the young/inexperienced dog in defense and build it up without shutting him or her down I doubt any trainer can do it without promoting hectic defense drives that will show up in the dog later. While environmental conditioning is just a part of the over all package in the end. What you do whether accidental or intentional invariably has an impact on the maturing dog. If any one can say they can predict the outcome of defense work on a young dog who is subjected to defense training in such a way it elicited a ‘protective’ response they are not only lying they are also an idiot.

Nothing personally directed toward any one person posting or otherwise. This is just a huge problem amongst so called “protection trainers” who have more ego then brains. Unfortunately we all suffer from this type of training in one form or another within the training industry.

Your best bet is to do as Ed suggested and develop in prey.

Good luck.

Orv - I am sorry but you are 100% wrong. There is NO EXPERIENCE TOP TRAINER anywhere - not in the United States, not in Germany, not in Europe that can work a young dog in defense and have it be a beneficial experience. Please do not allow these so called GURUS of training to bull shit you into believing this. They cannot reinvent the wheel. They cannot reinvent genetic, they cannot reinvent the relaitonship between prey and defense.

Defense should NEVER be brought into the training process until a dog is 11 to 12 months old (or in many cases older).

Bad training is bad training no matter who holds the sleeve, no matter how many dogs they have trained, no matter how large their club is, no matter how many people are impressed with thier sales pitch.

Defense on young dogs is flat wrong no matter how you paint it. Some things in dog training are open to discussion - defense on young dogs is not one of them.

Training pups and in a lot of cases young immature adults in defence as the foundation for protection work. Be that for sport and or real deal applications is simply wrong.

Many a good prospect is ruined by new people to dogs who as Ed puts it are trying to re invent the wheel.

Jerry

Ed, I think everyone's on the same sheet of music when it comes to STARTING or introducing a youngster to bitework by using defense instead of prey - it's a foolish way to go. And I'm probably misinterpreting this:

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
Defense should NEVER be brought into the training process until a dog is 11 to 12 months old (or in many cases older). But I don't know anyone who doesn't introduce SOME defense into their work with young dogs. When you have a 6-7 mo old pup on a rag or tug and you're working him in prey and the helper turns into the pup for an instant, frontal, eye contact, and then quickly turns out into prey again.... that's defense. If you're using a whip or slapping your leg, that's almost always defense. If you pull the pup up onto your body and let him pull/drag you back down for the win, that's defense, etc etc. Did you mean don't BEGIN with defense, and don't go deep into defense, or did you really mean don't do ANY defense until they're around a year old?

When you have a 6-7 mo old pup on a rag or tug and you're working him in prey and the helper turns into the pup for an instant, frontal, eye contact, and then quickly turns out into prey again.... that's defense. If you're using a whip or slapping your leg, that's almost always defense. If you pull the pup up onto your body and let him pull/drag you back down for the win, that's defense, etc etc.

Whether or not these things represent self defense to a dog is a very very individual thing. Much of the behavior is really nothing more than acclimating the young dogs to decoy type behaviors. Rarely is it self defense. I find that virtually all whip use I see is just noisy prey stuff. Seldom do I see the very skilled decoy use the the whip (or even more rarely these days of padded sticks, the schlagstock) in a fashion that consistantly brings defense to the work, even with older dogs.
You are better off waiting until the dog one day steps up to the plate and hands you a dose of fight drive or self defense drive. Then capitalize on it when offered.
Many people working in what I call the quieter sports, like BR, FR, MR will stay clear of even that during the foundations through young adulthood.

Quieter sports? Were you referring to french, mondio and another of the ring sports? I am wondering why you call them that? I thought that they are supposed to be more intense than Sch? I appreciate any help in understanding this! Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kevin, the real players in French Ring simply never train defence. It is all prey based. It simply appears that the dog is working in a defence mode due to the decoys attempts to appear but not be brutal. This is also a very hard and fast rule trial decoys must adhear to.

Call it an illusion but a lot of people who simply do not know the in and outs of this sport would assume that the dog is in a defence mode.

Jerry