a buddy is looking for a pup and came across a breeder that has 3 litters. to me this sounds like just a $$ making breeder. i would consider anyone that has 3 litters available at one time a "PUPPY MILL".
i have a advised strongly against it.

Careful, Dobe... some of the top breeders (including Ed) will occasionally have more than one litter available at a time.

You may very well be right that this is a puppy mill. Use judgement: What is the breeder's reputation in the breed? Do they have an actual breeding program that they can explain to you? What are the conditions at the kennel?

It isn't hard to separate a serious, conscientious breeder from a puppy mill operation. I am posting this only because having more than one litter on the ground does not necessarily indicate "puppy mill".

Pete

Another point to consider is that bitches tend to come in at the same time, and thus puppies will be born around the same time.

Puppy mills are not hard to distinguish. Usually they have lots of dogs and not all the same breed. Care is minimal...

In Missouri where I live, puppy mills are a BIG problem. If you can visit the "breeder", a puppy mill usually has 3-4+ breeds in order to keep up with the latest fad breeds. The cleanlyness of the place is anywhere from cluttered to disgusting. The breeders will often offer to deliver or meet you half way in order to "save you the trip". They don't want to let you see their opperation. A large scale breeder isn't necessarily a flag for puppy mills. Know your breeder. I don't consider myself an activist, but I've been thrown out of more than one pet shop trying to educate people.Responsible breeders will NOT sell puppies to a pet shop. The shops buy puppies wholesale at 50-60 dollars a pup and then, depending on what's popular, sell for hundreds, even thousands of dollars.

WHOA!!!! Back the puppy mill trolly up for a second!!!

I currently have 5 litters on the ground.

Whelp dates: 4/20
4/26
6/11
6/15
7/26

I am not ashamed to say I make a living through dogs. Breeding and training. I am not ashamed I have 5 litters. The care and socialization that goes into each litter is astounding the amount of time it takes. Be careful there are an awful lot of people out there that have great reputations(deservedly so) that breed an awful lot of litters. It has been said to develop your own line you need 10 litters a year. How else can you do that unless you have sometimes litters at the same time. Be careful when you make blanket all encompassing statements.

Good point about the meeting you thing, I forgot all about that. Trust your nose when visiting a "breeder"

I worked for a woman in CT that had dogs, lots of dogs, and always played it off like she really loved all her babies etc. Then we visited her kennel in GA.

65 dogs. All in chain link with those small garden sheds attached. A kennel on each side. 17 poodles(various sizes and colors, even the rare 'parti' colored ones) 22 Schnauzers(including white) Jack russells, akitas, and she was always trading and getting different breeds.

She never would tell me how many dogs she had. When I got to her "ranch" I damn near died. I quit working for her shortly there after(as soon as I could move my shit) and I hear she now owns a chain of Pet stores in Georgia. She bought three Giant schnauzers right before I left, because everyone liked my dog(duh, I spent a lot of time and money training her) and they are generally expensive as a breed....

Anyway, my point is that if they are only in it for the money it should be obvious. The dogs were all infested with fleas. And also tapeworms. She ALWAYS had puppies. *that is a big warning sign* More than one litter isn't a big deal, but to ALWAYS have puppies and to sell to the first person with the cash, is.

I get sick just thinking about this... sad thing is since they have food and water, it is totally legal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Todd
Thats why I said "know your Breeder". I definitally agree that If your developeing your own lines you have to breed numerous litters. The responsibility of finding good owners has to be scary though. In all my years in dogs, Iv'e had only one litter. That was a JRT/Border cross for working dogs, and I had eight people wanting puppies before the breeding took place, knowing it would produce 3-4 pups. Had 3. The responsibility scares the hell out of me. Another aspect of puppy mills. You wont see Titled, imported, studs and bitches on imediate papers.

Todd all your pups are spoken for right??
To me a good breeder already has an establised 'list' of where those dogs are going, based on temperment matching of course.

10 litters a year?? :rolleyes: your kidding right?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

i think i will stay with the notion...3 litters at once..."puppy mill"
no wonder theres so many damn dogs in rescue. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

see ya......

Ok.... so by that notion the idiot that breeds their one bitch 2 times a year isn't a puppy miller?

You need to evaluate EACH breeder individually. It is not JUST how many puppies they have, it is the care and training, the guarantees, the reputation, and where those puppies are in the grand scheme of things.

I am not saying that there are not large scale puppy mills out there that deal in a particular breed of dog only, but just because a breeder has more than one litter at a time does not a puppy mill make.

And so far as rescue. Don't bitch about it, get involved. You don't necessarily have to house dogs, there are a million things you can do to help. Transport dogs, list pets on petfinder for a small local shelter, do home visits for potential adopters, etc... the list goes on and on...

Cautionary statement again.

Ed has three litters available right now. Does that make him a puppy mill? I think not. Ed's passion for the past 20 years has been to improve the working German Shepherd Dog and he's not going to do that by breeding one litter per year. I don't know Mr. Gaster personally but I think I've learned enough about him on this board--and from his website--to know that he's serious about what he's doing and is also trying to improve the breed.

From the point of view of someone who has spent many years in breed rescue (GSD), I can tell you right now that the main reasons we get dogs are that someone is moving, they're getting a divorce, the kid is allergic, etc. etc. etc. It's not that Ed Frawley or Todd Gaster bred too many dogs. I live fairly close to both of them and we've never seen a Leerburg dog or a Rolling Acres dog. Top-notch breeders (as others have noted) are concerned primarily with placing all of their puppies in settings where they are likely to be happy, healthy, and occupied.

Puppy mills suck. No argument there. They are a plague upon every breed of dog, especially the popular breeds. The AKC could do us all a huge favor by refusing to grant papers to puppies from puppy mills (but they won't, because puppy mills are their cash cow).

Those are the facts. It's always best to separate fact from innuendo informed largely by gut feeling.

Pete