It seems there is a lot of GSD (including sub-species owners) and APBT/AmStaff owners in some kind of stupid feud about who is the bettter suited to perform service work.

My 2 cents on the matter is this, coming from a breeder and owner and proponent of responsible APBT ownership: The 6' wall for the APBT is no problem at all....Breed 100 and 85% easy will clear it over and over again...Breed 100 and most will be able to track appropriately...breed 100 and you will have everything you nee din a service dog. This is proven by the outstanding records of dogs in rescue, narcotics, yes tracking and other aspects of POLICE and NARCOTICS serice work. The problem is the general K-9 work. When a GSD/Mal/Dobie etc has to "apprehend" and detain and perp, the perp usually has minimal if any injuries. The bites of these dogs just isn't powerful enough to cause massive damage, ie broken bones, collapsed lungs etc...Plus they have the judgement to bite softly when needed, even when shaking....Hitting the sleeve is great with these dogs due to their size and speed etc, but their bite is just not the same. Judging by the statistics by the American Veterinarian society, the APBT accounts for 1.89% of total dog bites since 1973. But when they do bite, it causes too much damage to be used in standard K-9 work. Other than that, they are as suitable, as a breed, than any other dog including the GSD and others of their ilk. THey can perform the same tasks as well, as often, and have a loyalty to their owner handler that any GSD owner/handler would be envious of, but it is not worth the civil liability should one have to "apprehend" and detain a suspect. Yeah they are probably committing a felony and get what they deserve, but the NAACP/ACLU and others would have a hey day with the cop that sicked his APBT on someone and now they can't walk.

Just my 2 cents.

I have heard from respectable K9 officers that though depending largely on the dog itself, Malinois' can actually have more PSI in their bites than the Pit, so I would question that the Pits bite is too hard to do the work; it just doesn't make sense that the only thing holding them back in many instances is their ability to bite harder than necesary. The intensity of the dog's bite depends heavily on the suspects actions. If the suspect is fighting then the dog bites harder. If the suspect is giving up the dogs will continue to hold the bite, but may let off the pressure some. That is simply nature at work, though this is just my belief. The baton can easily breaks bones and cause severe injuries, but that doesn't mean it is too much for the job; it is a tool just like the dog.

I own both a Mal and a Pit and I can say this particular Pit has very little drive, and would be a perfect pet for an old folks home. The ability to do service work depends heavily on genetics. I think many Pits could very easily do the work, but others (like mine), simply could not.

In a previous post, I presented the question as to why more Pits aren't seen in a working environment. You might find it interesting. I think it is in the General Conversation category. It seems the general belief is that the breed has two strikes against it, first they unfortunatley have a poor reputation. I personally think the stereotype is ridiculous, but just the other day in Colorado a woman was attacked and killed by three Pits. The owner is the real problem, but how many really believe that.......second, the breed does not have quite the drives that other breeds do. All be it, there are certainly those Pits that would make fine PSDs, the bottom line is they lack just a touch.

Personally I would like to see more Pits on the street. I do not believe it is a matter of civil liability and the concern for it though. The liability is going to be the same regardless of what breed you use. It comes down to the individual dog, the handler, and the training.....bottom line. If the dog happens to be a Pit, then the liability is the same as a GSD or a Mal....the real problem lies in how the public may view the Pit as a PSD........jmho. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your insight!!! That is one strong Malinois!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps more problem than just bite discrimination is the situation that you descibed in the subject giving up and the dog releasing some of the pressure...A pit with the drive to do PSD (and you are definitely on the mark with that one...Most Pitts I know would just run up on the perp and look for a treat and like the bejeezus out of them... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> more likely than not, would have a real hard time justifying loosing his hold, they bite harder because they want to, but you are also correct in stating that Genetics plays a large part of it, not to mention training and such, but liability on the part of departments would be huge for Pit Bulls on the force and wouold be the source of many more lawsuits and civil actions than even the Rottweiler (who is responsible for over 66% of dog related fatalities to humans, while the APBT is under 10%) but even in civil damage trials, any ill-bred cur who injures someone is called a "pit bull" to get larger awards from juries, so fitness for work is certainly not something that I think the APBT lacks, they are certainly as capable as a Mal or GSD, but discretion of situation and tenacity seems to be an issue not to mention liability. When My young one is doing sleeve work, it HURTS!!! (She is still only 8 months or so still and weighs only 58 lbs, but hits the decoy harder than the others in her classes, much to the decoys chagrine because she just loves the sleeve... Will hang there all day if you let her...She is working on her outs, but in true Bully style is being hard headed. She just drags the sleeve down until the decoy gives in and then she lets go and wags her tail like crazy...Nedless to say, NOT going to be a PP or PSD type dog!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She just like to have fun and its a good workout....FOr the Decoy too...

Her traacking so far is absolutely astounding, and her carry ability for Search and rescue is so far unparalled in her class. She weighs less than any other dog and carrys consistently 3/4 more and for roughly a third farther than the others...Some being AB's...She is impressive but kinda stupid too...

Anyway, Bite coupled with liability = bad news for PD's.

When was the last time you saw a Mal shred a full size tire, just for fun?

Pounds per square inch is a meaningless measurement, it has no bearing in police canine work.

While you are throwing up all these opinions on the use of an obscure dog breed in police work, could you fill us in on your police qualification there, David? Are you actively working a K 9 on the street at this time?

Opinions have a lot more impact here when they're backed up with real world experience. We tend to get alot of people posting their opinions here, and it's nice to see them backed up by empirical evidence.

I don't believe I have ever given my dog an opportunity to shred a tire just for fun. I don't think it is good to allow the dog to chew on stuff, unless it is a person, or its food..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I saw that the Utah SWAT team has begun using an American Bulldog.

In my experience as a trainer of GSD, Mals, AB, Rottie and APBT in PP work, I would generalize the following:

Pits have a higher threshold to pain and go into defense after more pressure. They love fighting for the sake of fighting, winning the prey item is secondary to the fight itself. For this reason, I think they make great PP dogs. They will keep fighting the bad guy until the guy stops. This may not be ideal for a PSD though.

For PP work, the dog will only be engaged if the bad guy is threatening your life, therefore the outcome of the bite will not likely get you in trouble with the law. However, for PSD they apprehend criminals for sometimes "minor" crimes. It would be difficult to justify the use of such force on someone fleeing a crime.

I foresee the use of more Pits in SWAT/Military type applications in the future.

This subject has come up often, I've read some pretty impressive accounts of APBT in the World protection Dog forum outtings they seem to really do well in the bite work training. The GSD or Mal still wins the event.

After talking to Patrol and Protection trainers, I've come to the conclusion that the problem is the time it takes the APBT get there is considerable compared to the usual dogs used. I also seem to hear that there are just not that many good APBT choose from that can do this type work.

So far as bitting power the GSDs and Mals have adquate bitting power, have you ever seen a suspect leg/arm/body that tried to out run or fight a patrol dog, its not a pretty sight weather photos after the fact or bleeding at the scene.

Quite frankly we humans are not Rhinos, we are soft skinned, slow two legged animals, very little fur creatures a quick and easy kill if in the wild. If you wanta go back to nature.

As for breaking bones I've given my dog Ham bones with meat on it, I go out to reterive the bone later, it gone no new dirt mounds, no evidence that it exist. The dog broke the bone up and eat it, thats power.

One solid bone as big as the two bones in your fore arm. Gone. Were talking GSD here, brother.

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree here.
The U.S. military ( at least in the Army )is not considering pit type dogs for any type of training, whether deployment or experimental.
End of story for that theory.

Can someone here please post actual information or close this thread.

PSI is just crap to waste people time. It has nothing to do PSD work. Who bites harder, more powerful, etc is a waste of time.

As for "off-breeds" while I'm sure there are one or two, most have no place in LE. Either due to public image, breed traits or the lack of ability.

For the poster who said a SWAT team is using a AB, can you please tell us the dept. I'm sure Utah POST would have information that could verify it as passing the SWAT dog cert for POST. If Jon from Salt Lake is here what do you know about this one? I'm only surprised as I never hear of the AB folks waving the SWAT dog banner in every post that talks about ABs working ability.