Is it anyone who have an opinion about the quality of mixed german show/workinglines? I have seen a real good litter which is after a showline mother, going back to fanto vom hirschel and Xavier vom arminius, and a workingline male. This litter produced three solid PSDs and one securitydog. They all are very confident in strange environments and with great looks and health. Maybe we shouldn´t judge a dog to hard if it has some showlines in the pedigree, apparently this could work well sometimes. It´s better to look at the character and health of the dogs, instead of the papers.

Stig, this is just my opinion, but what happens when it comes time to breed these dogs? If you add more working, they will lose the "looks" and if you add more show, they will lose the drive or intensity. This generation may indeed work ok, but can they reproduce that?

I am not saying there aren't good looking working lines and possibly some drivey show lines, but generally speaking.

Stig,Deanna, If the dog can do the work it shouldn't matter if showline or working line.JMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Breeding is something totally different. Look at the number of Working Line GSD's that cannot reproduce themselves. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure that Stig is refering to European Showline and not American Showline GSD's. This alone could produce a Working Line GSD. With the American Showline GSD's there are some that have titles as I'm sure with the European GSD's.

Does this make them a WORKING DOG?? I think NOT!!
SPORT GSD, YES!!

Stig posted

 Quote:

This litter produced three solid PSDs and one securitydog. They all are very confident in strange environments and with great looks and health. Maybe we shouldn´t judge a dog to hard if it has some showlines in the pedigree, apparently this could work well sometimes. It´s better to look at the character and health of the dogs, instead of the papers.

Stig, my only question is "How to decide what to breed if we start mixing Working line and Show Line GSD's. It's hard to get a good litter on the ground with very selective and knoweledgable
breeding practices. Just think back about 30 to 40 years ago and it didn't matter what you bred.
The GSD's hadn't been watered down, I'm sure there were a few Showline dogs then that could do the job it was intended for. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It would appear that this litter turned out good.
How many of the Sport Working Line breedings produce -3- PSD's.

Mix them? NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! (best scream of utter anguish and pain)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I don't think that is a very good idea unless the show line parent has proven him/herself to produce good working ability no matter what he/she is bred to. That would show me that he/she passes her genes well and you might not muddy the genetic water if you added her to a working bloodline.

Here is my thing, my deal, my little idea. . .I don't agree that the West German show line dog is the best possible representation (conformationally speaking) of the German Shepherd Dog. So why the hell would I want to use one to "improve" my bloodline's conformation?

Nope, I would rather find a working line dog with basic working line conformation, who is correct according to standard, and breed it.

VanCamp posted,

 Quote:

Nope, I would rather find a working line dog with basic working line conformation, who is correct according to standard, and breed it.

Robert, That's what I was trying to convey. You have a way with words!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Besides I like ugly GSD's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Only ugly to people who don't know what they are looking at!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Stig--

One of the problems (or should I say "risks") in undertaking a show-working breeding is that the two lines have become increasingly isolated from each other over the past 20 years or so. What this means is that everything becomes a total crap shoot--the breeding you are referring to in your post is probably a lucky accident that might not even be repeated if you bred the same stud to the same bitch again.

I'm not a breeder, but if I wanted better conformation in my working lines I would breed a KKL1 working sire to a KKL1 working bitch, with an eye to both working ability and pigment/bone. It's not like there is any dire shortage of KKL1 dogs from working lines.

Pete

Of course, you can get *a* real good litter breeding allmost anything. There is some flukiness involved in genetics.

But mixing show/working lines does not and has not worked to produce consistently good dogs.

I have to wince a bit every time I hear someone present the idea of mixing show/work b/c it's a signal that the person has not done his/her homework. This idea is not the next big thing, it's not a brand new idea nor will it benefit the breed. It's been tried many, many times and the net result is a messy admixture of traits, the best of which are diluted badly.

If you are a working line fan, fine. Find dogs who can consistently produce great drive, solid nerves and throw nice structure. Those dogs exist right here in the US. If you lean toward comformation, it is entirely possible to find show line dogs who can work, and (again) *consistenly* reproduce this in their offspring.

A little bit of everything = a whole lot of nothing

If you don't believe me, come see Auster.

I agree with the idea of not mixing the two from the point of view of a working person with a small exception. Within a planned breeding program it might be a good idea to breed to a V rated Kkl 1 working male to improve the working abilty of a showline female. With the idea of breeding back to another showline VA male. Periodically going to sable, well pigmented, high drive working male in an attempt to produce stronger working ability in the showline dogs. Then we wouldn't have to be so embarressed when you see the bitework at the sieger show.

This would be the best use of mixing the two. Of course you wouldn't like this idea if you think that showlines shouldn't exist at all for any purpose. I'm sure thats the opinion of some on the list.

A little bit of everything = a whole lot of nothing

Phenotypically this statement is usually true. Usually when this happens its because the little bits of everything are garbage and how they are put together makes no sense. Theoretically I think their are good and bad aspects to most dogs. A plan to increase genetic diversity with the best of proven working lines and a few of the best showlines that go back very quickly to dogs of thirty years ago could make sense.

You wouldn't have what people today are looking for; a show winner or a consistently producing high drives working animal within a few generations. The puppies would be hard to sell. But you might be able to increase genetic diversity and bring back some of what has been lost over the last 30 years.

There are so many genes involved and we don't know that the selection process over the last 30 years has been optimal. This may provide a new chance to start again and get back to what the German shepherd was 30 years ago.

Of course this is a ridiculous idea if the working dog of today is superior to dogs of thirty years ago. The talk that I often hear, on this and other boards, makes me question if working breeders are very proud of how far they have come.

I'm embarrassed of what the show people have done.

I'm always interested in if working breeders feel that they have progressed the breed. If so I think it would be rare to lament about dogs from the past. If you do so, all your doing is wishing you had more showline genes in your dogs. That’s where the genes that are missing have gone.

I'm not making a statement here. I just want to understand. I'm confused when people talk wantingly about dogs from thirty years ago and almost in the same breath condemn crossing work to show.