I read the thoughts and opinions on show lines in german shepherds and i thought, man you guys have really got to see some of the 'show' dogs that they have in germany, south africa, nederlands and france, real good dogs. i have seen some pictures of the gsd's in america and that is a real shocker, really made me want to cry! a german shepherd is like a table with 3 legs, schutzhund, korkklasse and at least a 'good' grading. with a working dog you can go to the top, it's in them, but that doesn't mean that with a show bloodline dog you won't be able to do anything. in my mind, a 'show' dog has to be able to work, other wise what is the point? the german shepherd is a working dog and there is a standard on how he should look. i have worked and trained dogs that get an 'excellant' in the showring and are also good schutzhund dogs with fighting spirit present. they do exist! i hope that no one understands me wrong here, i have nothing against working lines, but i am against showingdogs that can't work! just my 2cents <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> also don't be so hard on the showline, there are actually some good lines that aren't breeding 'poodle' gsd's!

Certainly there are acceptions to the rule. But realize that the GSD does exist in two populations and many of us have gone and searched those populations in Germany, and Holland, and Belgium. There is a distanct difference. It isn't simply American show dogs we're talking about here (though they are far worse than the European version).
Your definition of work may be that past generations have titles but that is really a minimal standard.

Stephanie,
The sad state of most of the American bred show dogs is directly tied to the AKC and it's crappy policies. Breed recognition by the AKC is the kiss of death for a breed's working ability.

Hell, the AKC is busy destroying even hard core working breeds like the Border Collie - now even that breed will seperate into "show" and working lines. The show lines will be scared of sheep, no doubt. :rolleyes:

If you ever hear an AKC conformation judge talk about a breeds working abilites, you can be absolutely positive that they don't know what the Hell they're talking about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand the importance of any working breed of dog having to be the least bit pleasing to the eye. The beauty is in the work, and for any working dog, you can't see real beauty until you can see them DO what they were meant to do. There is no golden middle IMO. Real working dogs are made of gold, while the others are only gold-plated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Stephanie,

Look at it this way. A show dog is bred based on this principal.
1) Good looks, colors and structural conformation.
2) Temprement and nerve
3) Working drives
In that order of priority.

Working dogs are bred based on these sets of principal
1) Temprement and Nerve
2) Working ability
3) Looks and confirmation
In that order of priority

Although all the sets of principals are the same, the priority isnt. It is because of that these 2 categories become a totally different breed altogether after more than 1/2 century of these selective breeding using different sets of priority.

Like any case, exceptions to the rules are always there but these are freaks of nature and not a norm.......likewise occassionally you can get a V-conformed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> dogs from working bloodlines too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mike, I agree with the gist of your comment, but would have to add that, if form follows function, then a working dog _is_ beautiful, because their conformation matches the needs of their work. The problem with show GSDs is that the AKC has created a definition of form that has nothing to do with the function of a working dog.

So, for instance, my GSD, out of the 2000 Weltsieger, could never compete in an AKC conformation show; they'd call him banana-backed or roach-backed. Yet the average person who sees him often says something along the lines of "that's the most beautiful Shepherd I've ever seen."

Out of the mouths of babes (i.e. inexperienced), as they say...

Dave,

I agree with you american show shepherd is already a banned breed to the rest of the world per se. I only wonder why americans show community still refuses to see the obvious. This is sad indeed.

Oh my god not border collies too! I think that it is sad that dogs are being slipt into two different groups, frankly I don't see the point of having a beautiful dog that can't work! If that's what some people want, then they should be breeding toy poddles (no offense to the poddle community!)

It seems like just about every fairly popular breed has been split...my old neighbor used to breed working english setters, and they were so ugly. Well, honestly, they weren't ugly, but if you compared them to the show dogs, they were. But at least they could work. Name a breed, and there will probably be a split. Most of the popular retrievers, herding breeds, and pretty much anything with long hair. I always wondered why these breeds didn't make as big of a deal about the split as the GSD people do...maybe they do in private?

I do understand that the GSD was bred for function first, but wasn't that the case with most breeds originally?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Meghan Rabon:
I always wondered why these breeds didn't make as big of a deal about the split as the GSD people do...maybe they do in private?

Meghan,

Maybe because when an agile dog like a GSD being turned into stage pussycat......the die hards breed lover could stand it no longer.....lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />