Has anyone out there tried in cross breeding show and working line GSD? Just a thought.

My male GSD has a working blood line and a show line. He is impressive to look at. If I would have known then what I know now I would not have gotten him. All the faults he has I can attribute to the show line side of his pedigree. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He has made a great family dog, but never had what it would take to be a working GSD.

Health problems from female show line would be biggest concern.
I'm sure some have success, with the cross you mention. :rolleyes: I will never get another. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello Ferron... your profile indicates that you are a physician so I'm assuming that you have some training in genetics... probably more than most here on the board.

The idea of mixing show and working lines seems to be based on the hope that all of the good genes from both parents will be transmitted... i.e. the pretty genes from show and the drive and solid nerves from the working lines.

As you know, genetics doesn't work that way. There is a story about a beautiful woman with low IQ that married a really intelligent but homely man... all of thier children turned out to be "homely and dumb."

THE most difficult aspect of a working dog to obtain is SOLID nerves. Most German Shepherds are somewhat skittish, nervous, or weak nerved.

Skittishness seems to be genetically dominant... meaning that if the "skittish fear genes" are present on either side... they will be passed on to offspring.

Since, show line breeders focus so much on "beauty" (color, angulation, movement)... they tend to ignore the presence of the skittish genes.

As a result, very few show line dogs have seem to have strong nerves... and the few that do tend to carry those "skittish" genes so that when the reproduce, most pups are simply not capable of serious protection work.

See Ed's article on show line dogs or previous threads on this board regarding the genetics of fear.

With an extreme amount of money you might be able to get a dog that has similar markings of a show like GSD that is a solid working dog.

You might be able to meet with a specialist of some sort and hire them to search many kennels in other places to find a dog or puppy. There are some of top breeders that have lots of contacts I think.

I think you could find that if that's what your looking for, you'll just have to spend more money to find it. If your looking for a real working dog that looks like a show dog if that's your question.

After years of study regarding breeding of various types of dogs, a prominent geneticist reported:

The more beautiful a dog is, the less working ability it tends to have (Fogle, 1990, page 11).

Reference: Dr. Bruce Fogle. (1990). The Dog's Mind. Pelham Books: London.

:rolleyes: Ok man . . . I'm not disagreeing.
I know it's not easy to find. I just meant if one spent lots of money and time it could be possible but rare.

There's going to be a high chance that you won't get the best possible, but that doesn't bother some people. (They just need to know)

I'm sure some people who want their GSD to look good and weigh 100lbs could get by with it as a personal protection dog or sports dog, BUT they need to know they will be taking a considerable cut in performance.

Originally posted by Dave Lilley:
After years of study regarding breeding of various types of dogs, a prominent geneticist reported:

The more beautiful a dog is, the less working ability it tends to have (Fogle, 1990, page 11).

Reference: Dr. Bruce Fogle. (1990). The Dog's Mind. Pelham Books: London. Dave, but is not beauty that is held through ones own eyes. Form does follow function so then if one was to respect function then that form that follows must be appealing.

I have had many a person comment that Axel looks like a Dingo or Hyenna with a smirk on their face until they watched him work and the looks remarks dissappear and the term great dog is then the label.

Jerry

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Cudahy:
but is not beauty that is held through ones own eyes. Form does follow function so then if one was to respect function then that form that follows must be appealing.
Jerry

This is true, and some would not agree with me on this, but a few weeks ago I got to see a VA rated dog in person. After the dog was put up (and the handler was out of earshot), I made the statement "if that's what a VA rated dog looks like, I'll stick with SGs." To me, the show dogs are butt ugly, and the working dogs are the eye catchers.

Ferron,

To me, the problem with a "working/show" dog is bigger than just the difficulty of getting both chacteristics in one line. The big problem is that the extreme angulation in most of the show lines as crippled the ability to do good work. In the show lines there has been a change in the basic structure of the dog to create that angulation. If you look at the current "show" dog, there has been a change in the angle of the pelvis, and in many cases the front legs have been bred to be longer than the back. Another change in the physical change seen in these dogs is the "roached" back (because of the angle of the pelvis).

If you look at the working dogs of old the legs are the same length and the pelvis is at an angle much more similar to other breeds. The angulation that was seen was a function of the way the dog stood in a "show" stance (one back leg forward, one back). This position drops the position of the rear of the dog to create the chacteristc slope. However if you watch the dogs move the back was level. This position re-aligns the joints for better, more comfortable movement. This also allows for the dogs to maintain a more functional size. When the dog is standing and alert, this leg position allows for more drive in the begining of motion. The position could be compared to the position of a sprinter and function in the same manner. Once the dog is in motion the position returs to a more normal body position.

The current physical configuration of the "show" dog will not allow for proper motion. It will reduce the agility and stamina of the dog. I also believ that it contributes to the hip problems seen in the breed, as well as a reduction in the functional life span of the dog. The dogs are often smaller to reduce the weight that is forced on to the back leggs because of the new structure of the dog.

Bingo Mike, that is what it comes down to. What type of show line GSD do you want to see? American AKC, or German SV?

They both -F-ing suck. Over angulation and weak bone or short bodied and slope butt. That's like asking me which I would want to jump into, the frying pan or the fire. Both of 'em are gonna burn my ass.

Why on god's green earth would you want to take a show line dog, neither types of which are what I would consider a good confirmational representation of a GSD, and breed it to a working dog that already has what SHOULD be the correct GSD confirmation.

That is the problem here folks, both the AKC shepherds and the SV shepherds look like shit and are nothing like what a working line dog looks like. Both have problems with their confirmation that I don't want to see in the working lines, so WHY is my question?

Don't dirty the water just because you want to be able to compete in the show ring. If you are really interested in confirmation use the working lines as a model and then work to improve them while you breed for you main goal of working ability. If you have a working line shepherd that has funny feet and one that does not have funny feet, and they both have the same working ability, then you only breed the one without the funny feet.

That way we don't get anymore nasty ASS or German show dogs. Get it guys, you AKC/SV show boats out there?

Now, a comment for Brad and Dave. I know there are a few dogs out there that could compete in the SV show ring and still do some good work. I have seen some W. German and E. German working line dogs that had the basic confirmation of the SV show dogs.