Hi Folks...

Something that has been interesting me a bit amongst the threads on the board is the debate over Fero and Mink and how differing are the opinions in the working dog world over the merit of both these dogs.....

Having thought it over do any of you know which of the two sires have produced the most service dogs military/police??

Surely being sought after as 'street' dogs more than anything determines the strength of nerve and correct temperament for work over those that produce top Sch competitors....

If neither of these two dogs are continuingly producing the right progeny for the services, which studs and bitches and lines then are the most potent??

Where do the services look to for fresh bloodlines from outside their own breedings ?

I look forward to your comments...

Cheers

explained on a PM

I got your PM Neil but I am looking for specific information on the actual dogs and lines that are used in patrol work?????

What dogs do appear in the pedigrees of a lot of patrol dogs in Europe and in America????

cheers

Mark-
Other than the RCMP I don't know of any police departments in North America that have their own breeding programs. Most police dogs today come from US vendors who outsource to Eastern Europe. Researching blood lines is difficult when all your paperwork is in Slovak.

RCMP also gets dogs from outside sources. My mentor provides them with dogs, as well as provides dogs to PDs in the States. Her dogs are in high demand for those capacities. Her lines are a mix of DDR & WGR. You see Fero sometimes in her lines (he is in no way a "foundation" of her dogs though, just shows up a couple of times), but mostly she goes to the source, Boris Trogenbach through other dogs (Brix Laimbachtal to name one).

And no, she is not European, she is a North American breeder.

As to lines for police work among the GSD's there are none. There are some breeders who look that direction in their breeding. But, none that are specifically for police work, contrary to some people's marketing. Even breeders who want to keep a "real" attitude in their dogs are using dogs whose criteria for selection is almost exclusively sport success and the sport success of their progeny.
This isn't wrong. I do believe that it is imperative that the selection process for sport, which includes a good dose of selection for quality temperment, be fully involved in the selection for working dogs. If the ONLY criteria were whether the dog could be a police dog, had good prey, high fight, it would become tough to place a lot of such animals.
I also believe that the sport has added too much into the working lineage in that a stint on the podium equals breedings. This may or may not be a correct breeding decision. Popularity of the stud in no way means we've improved the working qualities of the breed.
Since police dogs are selected for individual suitability and not for breeding suitability choosing a dog only because it is a police dog is just as bad if not worse than choosing the dog that sits on the podium for propagation.
As to what lines make good police dogs? I know I have a few choices that I like, and much of those would suprise people I think. The loss of much of Mutz Peltzeirfarm's and his fathers genetics becuase the show people didn't like his shoulders and occasional soft ears is unfortunate. I really like how it came through Arri Neffeltal. Much of that can be seen through some of the older Peko Haus breeding. I have had three police dogs I worked on the street that can be traced back into such lineage. Damned fine dogs all of them.

Cheers guys

I find it strange that there is so much emphasis on working lineage for Schutzhund honours and very little direct emphasis on discovering the precise lines that would make producing dogs for patrol work easier!

It surely would take just a few generations from a few knowledgeable breeders to increase the percentage chances of capable dogs from each litter!!

Am I wrong here??

Isn't it the general aim of most of the breeders on this board to produce better and better quality Shepherds and after all wasn't that just what Von Stephanitz and a few of his dedicated friends produced in a far less knowledgeable time?

Surely it is possible?

What do you all think?

Isn't it the general aim of most of the breeders on this board to produce better and better quality Shepherds and after all wasn't that just what Von Stephanitz and a few of his dedicated friends produced in a far less knowledgeable time?

Depends on your definition of .....better shepherd....doesn't it?
M. Stephanitz wanted an all around working dog, not just a working police dog though this was a big part of it due to the decline of agricultural life in Europe and probably the fact that he was a military man. But, read his book, he cautions against using a dog for breeding just because it is a police dog. He also rails against the show, prefering breed surveys for selecting breeding stock. I think he was leading the GSD and its breeders towards producing a broad based working dog where consideration was away from all extremes. Too bad his advise is so poorly followed. He warned against letting the GSD become a fancy dog. With a handful of exceptions that is exactly what it has become.

It would be nice if many breeders wanted to improve the GSD. Some breeders want over angulated "pretty" dogs for show, and some want good working dogs. Some of the breeders want cash. Many dogs coming out of Europe are genetic misfits which are the result of the high demand for working dogs in the US and international market. There are vendors "hand picking" dogs that have no buisness being police dogs. It would be nice to see more US kennels raising dogs for police work. There are quite a few as said by an earlier poster who supply the RCMP. PD's considering a specific vendor can contact the RCMP dog section to see if the vendor was ever used by the RCMP.

Thanks again for your replies, excellent comment. Matt, that was my absolute point of this post! In this day and age it seems strage the a country such as the US and to a lesser degree England have to look to continental Europe for supply of the best type of dgs for the work..
I am certainly not an authority on the subject but it strikes me that there must be a huge amount of the correct genetic material in your country.......

DDR have done it, Czech Republic and Slovakia to a
lesser extent as well! Dedicated kennels that the rest of the world look to now for their own dogs!!!

It seems the Swedish mental test is going that way as well! (Correct me if I am wrong please).

Is this too difficult a question to find a solution to??

cheers