Hi all

I am aware this topic has been discussed before, but I think it got only so far as suggesting that working bloodline breeders should focus on improving conformation if they can but I wanted ask what people had in mind would actually be the best conformation for the working GSD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
For instance does anyone believe we should be striving to breed dogs that have roached backs and over angukated legs??? or a more balanced natural looking dog much like the working bloodlines are now, with more level backs and moderate angualtion in the legs?????

But then we know this show structure is actually functional (though I hate to admit it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) because for example Karl Fuller has these dogs that work daily as herding dogs covering 50km a day. However it makes sense that if this is really the best structure how come the GSD didn't evolve like this in the field but rather in the show ring which everyone knows is the doom for working dogs .The German farmers would of bred these funny looking dogs instead of their flat-backed dogs if they thought they could do the job better. I guess you could describe it as natural selection or form follows function
Whats more what about the Old german herding dogs in germany today- none of them have banana backs or angulated legs. The Belgian and Dutch shepherds look very different to the show GSD and they were utilsised by farmers in the same herding style as GSD's. Where the dog acted as mobile fence, or perhaps i am wrong??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I think that too much deviation from the natural structure of the dog as in exaggerated features results in some way disadvantaging the dog health wise just becuase its so unnatural. Not to mention the huge amount of inbreeding needed to create a whole breed to look so uniformly deformed. And which also concentrates the unwanted recessive genes for genetic disorders.
Does anyone know if the sloped back in show dogs increase incidences of spinal problems???? Yet there can be spinal problems in level backed dogs too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
The low tail-set in show dogs also results in them sometimes having anal furunculosis (pus forming boils in the glands under the tail often needing tail amputation or euthanasia). I don't know of an exaggerated feature in any breed of working dog that has improved their ability to function physically in their work.
I would look at herding bloodlines for ideas to improve conformation cause these dogs were bred to have the structure that can cover miles each day , but then not all herding bloodlines have banana backs or flat backs. What do you guys think????? The show people argue that working bloodlines we breed will MOST LIKELY tire <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
It looks like i've kinda contradicted my self but I'm just trying to be objective here.

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Originally posted by Katie Ribarich:
But then we know that this structure is actually functional (though I hate to admit it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) because for example Karl Fuller has these dogs that work daily as herding dogs covering 50km a day. .

Without getting too involved in this topic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I will just state a few things I think about structure..

I can no doubt say structure does play a role in the overall endurance of an animal but we must remember that genetics also plays that part. There are red muscle fibers and white muscle fibers. Red being for endurace and white more of a sprint fiber. I have owned many dogs and all are working lines with more straight backs. My first dog was more of a sprinter, didn't have endurance, but my second female Faeghan can go all day long and then some. She's nine years old and swims in the ocean everyday for two hours non stop then jogs home with my brother which is about three miles each way. After she gets home she goes right over and want to play ball. She just has the genetics for endurance, not only in her structure but her muscle fiber and lung capacity.

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There are red muscle fibers and white muscle fibers. Red being for endurace and white more of a sprint fiber.

Yes i have heard that but don't know much about it. I was also told that muscles can be short twitch or long twitch, and will store and release energy in completely different ways and different rates( this sounds like the red and white muscle fibers). And that it would be more correct to say that a better structure will increase the number of years that a dog can work for instead of increasing the stamina that is required for a single days work.
So what do you think this structure should look like ?????? any ideas anyone????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Look at a coyote or wolf. Mother nature has done quite well with those two. Natural selection has eliminated any usless features such as over angulation. They can trot along all day at a pace that would probably waste most dogs. I've seen a few working GSD that could pass for a coyote. Show Shepards! I don't think so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thats what I always thought but show people seem to think that they can do better than nature, which is a dangerous assumption if you ask me because look at all the genetic health problems so many purebred dogs have as a result of being bred for unatural or exaggerated features.

Gotta post this website by Linda Shaw, it explains the pros and cons of different structures of GSD's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/Index_Page/Index_Page.htm

Just recently joined and wanted to reply to the question regarding what should a working dog conformation should be. I was really hoping someone knowledgeable would have given all us wondering people a consise answer. If I assume that by working dog you mean a dog that would be suitable for protection/shutzhund work then my guess and all will know I'm not any sort of expert here but I assume power, jumping ability, and some agility are needed, where as if you were describing a working dog that has to travel long distances you would want a fluid, energy saving trot. Now I know nothing of protection and shutzhund work and can only make some comments based on my experience with horses. Several yrs ago the trend in Europe was to award 10's to stallions at stallion inspections that had a huge trot thinking this big trot was flashy for dressage. I was at an inspection in N.A. were it was admitted that the rewarding these huge trots turned out to be at the expence of other desireable traits and wasn't such a good thing after all. Eg this particular trot leaves the hind end way out behind (the result is loss of carrying power needed for jumping ability, advanced dressage moves such as piaffe and passage, etc.) For example a three day event horse has to run and jump hazardous obstacles and you NEVER see that type of trot in an International level 3day event horse. Now my understanding is that American showline Shepherds are being bred for a floating, efficient trot. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong here...
So if I just want a dog to keep up with my horse when I go riding that conformation might be fine. Is that efficient trot detrimental to protection or shutzhund type work?

There is NO reason to have that much angulation in a dog such as the A.S.S. Again there is much more that goes into being able to run along side a horse for hours and doing fast blind searches. Structure is only part of the equation. Since we brought horses into it I look at the working cattle Quarter horses verse the racing Quarter horse. One is bred for longevity and the other for fast sprints. Same breed different working ability. I am certainly not saying structure doesn't play a role cause it most certaintly does but no dog can have extreme angulation and have proper working structure whether it be working sheep or running blinds. As Bob pointed out look at the wolf. No angulation and they run for miles on end.

I met a dog with extreme American angualation and was appalled.

Everything was so loosely attached the dog was very clumsy and moved on its hocks. It truly looked crippled. My far less angulated dog can go all day at a good pace and does not fall over obstacles.

I have another dog with German showlines who is more angulated than the working lines less than American and he tires much more quickly and is not nearly as coordinated with regards to logs, etc.)

I'm asking the question is that type of show conformation detrimental to the abilities needed for shutzhund/protection work assuming that we have 2 dogs to compare of the same cardivascular/muscle type, etc. Simply a structure question.
A lady I know teaches people how to judge horse conformation and she points out that there are too many combinations of hindend structure (length of bone and angles) that "work" so she simply boils it down to power. The stride either provides power or it doesn't. Sorry to all you non horse people for going back to that-it's just an area where I'm more familar.