Does anyone know when the Courage test was taken out in Schutzhund, and do people of the board feel it should reinstated?

Brad
Not sure what you mean? They still have the courage test in SchH.....

I'd heard once there was a number system in the rating of courage with the dogs competing. I could be wrong. This is just what I was told.
Forgive me for not explaining further.

Brad,

I think what you are referring to is the old 10 point scale for courage, hardness, and fighting drive. This was way before my time, so I'll try to relate what I've been told about this from old timers in the sport.

Prior to the early 1980's(?), in addition to the protection score, the protection judge awarded a numerical score between 1-10 for courage, hardness, and fighting drive. Not many dogs got a 10, and those that did truly deserved it. A 10 rating was used in stud dog advertisements.

Sometime in the early 1980's(?) this 10 point scale was replaced by the current system of Pronounced, Present, and Insufficient. Almost all halfway competent SchH protection performances (and some not even that good) get rated Pronounced. In my limited experience observing SchH trials, a dog has to be very weak to get Present, so maybe 90% of SchH performances get Pronounced. I've never seen a dog get rated Insufficient... I guess they have to run from the field or something for that to happen. I'm told that in the Sieger shows the standard for a Pronounced rating is much lower than the already low standard in SchH trials.

Since nearly all dogs get Pronounced, it unfortunately doesn't have much meaning, or value to breeders.

One old timer in the sport, who mostly breeds and trains police service dogs, says that dropping the 10 point scale was one of the most damaging changes ever made to schutzhund.

Laura

It is a shame they did away with the point system. What SchH does need is more judges that see things the way SV Kurt Falkenstern (the USA Nationals protection judge) see things.

Originally posted by Doug Wendling:
It is a shame they did away with the point system. What SchH does need is more judges that see things the way SV Kurt Falkenstern (the USA Nationals protection judge) see things. In what way does this judge see things?

I find it really interesting that the German/European judges do NOT fault a dog that slows considerably to target on the courage test. Debbie Zappia's dog slowed to a crawl and there was no deduction taken, and if you watch the BSP and WUSV tapes, you never hear the comment that the dog should carry more speed into the contact with the helper. But our american judges consistently point any dog that doesn't hit at full speed. I don't think it's good for the sport or the breed to place such high emphasis on running thru the helper; that behavior comes from intensely high prey, so in order to be successful in competition, we're buying and breeding higher and higher prey monsters.

It's also very dangerous for the dog and the helper.

The judge was very much into seeing power in the dogs. He liked dogs that showed attitude and that liked to fight back and not just go along for the ride. The fact that some dogs did not come crashing through on the courage test did not mean the dog was going to loose a bunch of points. Their is a difference, a dog that slows to target and a dog that slows because they aren't so sure they want to mix it up with the helper. And he saw this and called it like he saw it. A clean routine and not much power wasn't going to get you far with this judge. I would really like to now just how many dogs were given pronounced as a rating? I know he handed out a fair amount of sufficients. I know I have worked my share of trials and walked off the field wondering if the judge was watching the same dog I just worked, pronounced all the time?
He wanted to see the helpers push the dogs. He wanted the dogs tested, not just go through the motions like is so common place.

One other thing that I thought was pretty cool of the judge. When a HOT team was showing he would if he could give them a couple extra points. The handler, owned, trained dogs meant something to him.