I've been using operant conditioning with my 8 month female GSD and wanted to minimize the use of "correction" (punishment).

The problem is, this is a SUPER high drive pup that acted like a wild beast whenever she wanted to chase or explore something new while on leash.

Even though she has food/ball drive and I attempted to use these... the motivation could not compete with the her desire to play with other dogs or people that we passed on the street.

Finally, I decided to make one exception and taught the dog to walk nicely using a prong collar as I have for the past 15 years.

Using correction, teaching the new command took only about 15 minutes.

When I searched through the "clicker training" websites, I discovered 2 things:
First, they generally don't train really high drive, hard dogs. Second, they use a process called "desensitization" to help dogs get used to distractions.

Problem is, I think it would have taken 2 years before my dog became "desensitized." By then, my wife would have left me.

Do you think clicker training can be used with this type of dog without correction?

Dave,

At 8 months I would be using corrections with this dog too. You probably held out longer than I would have. One thing I think that you always have to remember with doing a "method" of training is to evaluate how well it is working. If it isn't getting the job done then by all means change what you are doing. Every method will not work for every trainer or dog. I think with clickers and high drive dogs there may be some advantages in feeding in to the drives with either food or play. If the motivator is high enough they are going to concentrate more on the reward and ignore the distractions. Some dogs are more distractable than others. If you get one that is distractable a correction is a very good method of re-focusing the dog on the goal at hand and teaching the dog to ignore the distractions. In some cases with high drive dogs the reward can actually become a distraction for the dog. They are so focused on the reward they "forget" what it requires to gain their reward. The only solution to that may be going to a lower reward and reduce the drive until the dog can maintain concentration.

I agree Richard. Ironically, since the pup was not used to being corrected, she adjusted her attitude quickly. The correction was MORE effective. And thats good because this is not a "soft" dog.

There have been other times when "desensitization" worked VERY well. For example, to get her attention on a strange field, I rewarded every time she looked up to find me, then whenever she came close to me... no punishment was needed.

Now, when she wants to "play" or get a treat, she comes close and looks me in the eyes... makes a nice foundation for competition heeling.

Its harder to train dogs with strong drive with click. My roots get so excite with the reward, they dont pay attention to the click.

If you use with puppies, even with strong drives, you will get better results.

Your impression that most of the defensors of click training have experience with breeds with low or none trainability is right. I train working dogs from great blood lines, and I train little dogs just to be good companion/pet dogs.

These little companion dogs are usually really stupid and clicker training is an excellent way, sometimes the only way to get something from these little buddies.

Dogs with strong drive, use their own drive to reward. You can reward a dog throwing a ball, playing tug of war , letting they bite , etc. With little breed dogs, the only thing they might have some interest is in food. Then you have the clicker to help.

These clicker training "blind enthusiasts" say you never should use any aversive (correction), say its possible to train a dog only with operant conditioning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Bullshit!!

If a weak handler/owner only train with clicker a dominant dog, never correcting mistakes, specially serious mistakes like biting or disobeying, he will be in serious trouble soon!!

Get an excelent GS puppy, /belgian Mallinois/rootweiler from the best working lines, and try just clicking and no correction. Poor guy.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To have a fully trained, trustful and reliable dog you must correct mistakes. What I agree is to use a lot of time and energy to make the dog to succeed. If something goes wrong, step back, correct your mistakes and make the dog do right.

A good trainer knows when to correct a dog. When done with wisdom and not anger you will get to the right spot.

Hey Dave! I am big on using Operant Conditioning, and try not to use to many corrections. I too have a very hard and highly driven dog (A.P.B.T). She too is very Doggy, and loves to go check people out. The First thing you have to remember is that you don't have to be phyiscal to correct your dog. What I would do is make her so ball or tug crazy that it will overide the other stuff. If at that point it isn't overiding the distractions your are too close. Move to a distiance wear you can get the desiered responce from your dog and slowly move in from there. Who cares if it takes six months you have all the time in the world.
Dave

I am about to start puppy training with a trainer who does not use choke collars or any corrections. My pup is a Mastiff. She is has low drive in my opinion. I am not looking for miracles with this pup, just basic obedience and reliability. I will be purchasing a working GSD in the future. I don't see how a trainer can teach the "out" without correction or coercion. It will be interesting to see how this individual trains dogs. He's written several books on this training method, but I don't know that he's been involved in protection training. I'll ask him.

I'm so glad I read this.
I'm new and I had this very question in my mind...clicker train or not to clicker train.
I have a 3 yr old Malinois. I've only had for 2 and half months. and I have to confess it's been a long 2 and ahalf months. I had her in clicker class. Coda hated the clicker so I came up with my own little "tct tct" sound. At the time when she came to live here she was pretty high strung and was really intimdating to meet at the front door. I've been doing alot of desensitizing, socializing, running, tracking, and ending up with a tired dog at the end of the day. She's like a whole new dog. I really think that, at first, getting her to focus in by the sounds I was making helped get her into a place of focus. But now she's a much different dog then when I first got her. and I just don't think that clicker is enough for her.

Your post indicates a lack of understanding of what a clicker is/how it is used. First, let's dispell the myth that if you use a clicker, you never use punishment or negative reinforcement. The 'purists' (a la Karen Pryor's camp) DO refuse to use either type of aversive, but that is an extreme view. The rest of us use the clicker because it has one huge advantage over not using it - the ability to reinforce a behavior EXACTLY at the right moment. THat's all it's intended to do. Most people have better timing with a clicker than they do with their voice, and most people overuse their voice which weakens its effect as a reinforcer. So the clicker is more effective (clearer to the dog) due to its improved timing. It's just a way to tell the dog that THAT was the behavior I want, and then you follow it up with the primary reinforcer (ball, tug, food, etc). There's no magic in it. It's just a tool, and a damned good one. It's use does NOT preclude the use of aversives where appropriate.

ROTFLMAO!! Call me any names you want to, ED! Let's see... out of four trials with two different dogs this year, my obedience scores were 98, 97, 97, 99. Hmmm, think I'll just keep right on clicking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> So Kevin Sheldahl is weak minded also?

Thread closed. this thread is over a year and a half old...anyone who wants to continue discussing clicker training may start a new one