I've taken note of people around here saying that the GSD isn't what it used to be etc etc. Does that mean quantitativly? In other words, is it that, per GSD capita (show lines included), there are simply less quality working candidiates?

Or qualitativly? That is, does it mean the quality of the current working lines/candidates still aren't what they used to be compared to other working lines/candidates of years past?

As far as I can figure, if the appropriate blood-lines are dutifully maintained (which they seem to be...right?), then the problem isn't so much the lack of good dogs, but rather the abundance of crappy ones.

Secondly, I haven't even the shallowest understanding of creating/maintaining bloodlines etc. But I'll ask anyway...is there a fundamental problem to out-crossing with other breeds? In other words, what's preventing someone from mixing up working Mals with working GSDS? Is it mainly a matter of not knowing what to call it or how to paper it? Or would it be a matter of making a risky genetic crap-shoot which would tend not to result in consistently desirable phenotypes?

Kurze wrote: "Secondly, I haven't even the shallowest understanding of creating/maintaining bloodlines etc. But I'll ask anyway...is there a fundamental problem to out-crossing with other breeds? In other words, what's preventing someone from mixing up working Mals with working GSDS?"

Ever hear of KNPV and the Dutch breeding programs? They do it quite well. . .mix things all the hell up and produce some nice working dogs.

There is no easy answer to your other question. The focus of breeding is always changing and there have been enough mistakes along the way that the bloodlines (working lines) have suffered. There are small pockets of breeders and bloodlines that are still very, very good. The difference between working lines now is the focus of sport and how that influences some breeders in the wrong direction. So there are show lines, and working lines, and WORKING lines. Get it? As more branches of the lines go along their merry little ways, the blood thins. Breeding working lines to conformation, breeding only for sport (i.e. super prey dogs, super grip, etc), and breeding without knowing what the hell you are doing all have an effect in limiting the really good working line breeding stock. They are out there, just not so easy to find unless you know what to look for.

Any closer to understanding? You really have to understand the entire history and the focus of all the breeders in the history of the breed, to get the whole picture.

I think mixing it up as KNVP and Dutch programs do can add a lot of hybrid vigor, If you know what you are doing.

Vancamp, What are your thoughts on breeding the Czech line to the DDR line. This would be done using top producers from both lines.

VanCamp:

No kidding? I thought the Dutch simply took a convential approach with Mals... which just happened to be less corrupted overall than the pop breeds at this point. Interesting.

I think I get what you're saying. The bloodlines are micro-managed for exclusive niches.

Out of curiousity, where do your dogs come from?

The Czech lines have been bred to the DDR.

I like what I have seen of the W. German and Czech crosses so far.

Czech and Slovakian lines, some West German and some Belgian. I have six dogs, 4 pure Czech, 2 crosses to Czech.

VanCamp
In your NSHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> , are there many big differences between Czech and DDR lines, or because they were both iron curtain countries, was there a lot of breeding between the two countries.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
The Czech lines have been bred to the DDR.

I like what I have seen of the W. German and Czech crosses so far. I find that the two blend well together in what I have seen.

I need to clarify better.
Because the Czech lines and DDR lines have beed bread together, do you consider them one and the same. If not,why not?