Several years ago when first seeing a prong demonstrated in training class I never thought I would be an advocate for its use. It looked awful and surely MY dog didn't need one. After all, he wasn't a guardian breed. WRONG. It's very humbling to admit you're wrong, but he did need one for several months and turned out a better dog for it.
My friend and I (and our dogs) participated in our annual SPCA charity walk on Sunday the 8th of Sept. I could have given out free prongs to about 300 people. How anyone can have a good time walking their dog the way I saw some of these people walking is beyond me. For the first time I saw more dobes than rotts, a few of them out of control. Even a not very well trained dog can walk on lead very well using a prong. I know. I bought one for my next door neighbours husky. I've recommended them to many people, but very few act on the advice unless they actually have the opportunity to use and check one out first. I was the same way.
A prong can be a godsend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can understand people when they look at it, but the main thing I think people need to quit doing is relating dogs to humans.

It's like this, when a pups doing something wrong we've all seen another dog correct it. The punishment is a bit harsh. That's their way. You don't have to use it when there's no reason to of course, that's wrong, but sometimes a dog never learns any other way.

This brings me to another question and I'd like to hear Mr. Castle's opinion, how often these days are prongs being left out now with the E-collar in effect? If one's a master with it, do they skip the prong, or is it still a vital part of training with or without the E-collar. I'm sure on light levels the E-collar wouldn't even be as painful as the prong. I've been shocked plenty of times, some hurt, some didn't. I can't say for sure though since I don't know, what's the opinion of the board?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brad G:
with the E-collar in effect? If one's a master with it, do they skip the prong, or is it still a vital part of training with or without the E-collar. I'm sure on light levels the E-collar wouldn't even be as painful as the prong. I've been shocked plenty of times, some hurt, some didn't. I can't say for sure though since I don't know, what's the opinion of the board?

Don't get me started!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well it should be interesting. I've heard it goes Flat, Slip, Prong, then E-collar. That's fine with me. I will say I've been shocked with electricity on ALL levels. I use to do electical work. Many people are very misinformed on the pain. Some light hits are not that painful, not like a prong. No some will hurt, BAD. The idea of electric current is much more horrifying in society's mind than in reality often times, JMO.

I don't have the experience to know just yet, it will be fun to read this thread, lol.

There is no reason for the use of a prong collar to involve pain. Pain results when the trainer misuses the tool with which he is working. The prong collar, or choke chain, are used to get the animal's attention and emphasize correction. Some discomfort is sometimes necessary in order for certain dogs to begin to accept correction, but when one inflicts pain he's going too far and doing more damage than good.
It is my opinion that the use of the E-collar in normal training is totally out of place. I have found that it distracts from the learning process.
I like to use the inate courage and personality of the dog to achieve my end. I get into the dog and work through the dog and never rely on fear or pain to try to get results.
My finished dogs are confident and hard in performance, but have not known fear. My dogs respect the handler and will bust their butts to please him, but they have no fear of him.

This isn't to criticize anyone, but only to express the opinion of an old dog trainer.

The day I went to PetSmart with my 10 month old GSD who weighed 95lbs., a very large man (both in height and weight) attempted to scold me for buying the collar! I asked him if he ever owned a large dog which he said yes to. I asked if he ever took the dog in public and he said, "No way, they were not that kind of dogs."

nuff said.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Springer:
There is no reason for the use of a prong collar to involve pain. Pain results when the trainer misuses the tool with which he is working. The prong collar, or choke chain, are used to get the animal's attention and emphasize correction. Some discomfort is sometimes necessary in order for certain dogs to begin to accept correction, but when one inflicts pain he's going too far and doing more damage than good.
It is my opinion that the use of the E-collar in normal training is totally out of place. I have found that it distracts from the learning process.
I like to use the inate courage and personality of the dog to achieve my end. I get into the dog and work through the dog and never rely on fear or pain to try to get results.
My finished dogs are confident and hard in performance, but have not known fear. My dogs respect the handler and will bust their butts to please him, but they have no fear of him.

This isn't to criticize anyone, but only to express the opinion of an old dog trainer.

Hank, not to pick on an "old dog trainer" but, have you used a MODERN e collar? Properly used, it is no more about "pain" than the flat, slip, choke, or prong... much less is it about FEAR.

I love it when people tell me the prong is more humane and that the prong only works on sound and suprize, not on pain... bullshivic. :rolleyes:

I have a soft dog. He works on a fursaver on the dead ring. For off leash corrections he works on a dogtra on a low level. If there was pain involved he would head for the hills. Fact of the matter is that the shock is less than what you will get walking across the carpet with wool socks on.

If you would like to see a finished dog that is confident and hard in performance I suggest you take a look at Bernhard Flinks' Itor op de Hyde. That dog has been trained with an e-collar properly and is the picture of CONFIDENCE.

If pain is the motivator when using a prong collar then the foundation was not properly laid.If the foundation has been laid right then the prong is not about pain.
Correct me if Im wrong please but when bernhard introduces the e-collar for the first time (on recalls) isnt it maxed out.If thats the case then the lower level e-collar corrections are a reminder of the introduction to the collar wich was painfull.
There is a right and a wrong way to use the prong and there is a right and wrong way to use the e-collar.
The biggest advantage of the e-collar is the timing,when used correctly.

yeah, you are mistaken a bit.

Since I am the one who drug him into it I will explain.

Bernhard NEVER has a pup off leash. The dog is introduced to corrections in the form of a pop on the recall when the pup decides not to follow him (around 4-5 months old). This teaches the dog from the very beginning that he is in control. People here tend to want the dog off leash way too early and set themselves up to teach the dog he doesn't have to obey.

The first time the electric is used if I remember correctly was for crittering, and yes, he uses it at high power. You must take into account he doesn't own soft or low drive dogs.

I agree with David on this. All to often people use what they do not understand. Corrections are no different. People shy away from effective corrections because when they tried to implement the correction in a motivational but non-painful way they seen a deteration of their dog’s attitude.

As always timing, consistency and proper motivators are the keys in any good training method.

To dismiss the use of a good, yet fair corrections, is like trying to drive a car without brakes. Sure, you can go places but you lack the control expected in your dog. This is especially true in new or stimulating environments where your direct influence and leadership will be check and quartered until eventually normalized in the dog’s mind.

There is a difference in a dog that sits because he wants to and one who sits because he knows he must. The well disciplined dog is just as happy as the no disciplined dog’s from any never say NO operant methodologist club as long as he is also well rewarded with well timed rewards.

E-collars make the correction consistent and they have evolved. This evolution has come from the perception of using electric to motivate. Therefore, they backed of level 10 corrective devises and now have many levels to deliver based on the dogs sensitivity and owner sentiments.

The real secret however comes from what they have learned but have not shared publicly. (At least I have never found)

This is what I think they learned:

Consistently delivered corrections that are annoying more then they are painful works just as well for molding behaviors
The dog only needs to feel it a correction each and every time and not like it when he does. The amount and level of a disruptive- annoyance/correction is individualized of course.

He does not need to shoot sparks out of his eyes for this type of correction to work.
That being said, I will say I do not use E-collars often save the need to give “out of site” reinforcement to stop a behavior because I am a farm boy who still attends “old school thoughts” on many topics.

Using only E-collars or any piece of training equipment is restrictive in mind and actuality.

When we learn to only flip a switch most of us forget how to make a fire for light.

Use the collar that works is the best advice and think 3 times about listening to a "trainer" from the - " Only 120 hours and You Too can Train Dogs School."