How young is too young to start training with a prong. I've got a six month old strong willed and high pain tolerance Boxer. Trains well with choke; however, on occasion will buck the system regardless of how hard my correction (without breaking his neck) I tried a prong on a heel around the neighborhood. Did very well and definetly got his attention, but I felt (maybe I shouldnt) I felt a little guilty - dumb puppy syndrome. Too young?

I wouldn't worry about your boxer pup on the prong. If used properly it is actually softer on the pup than a choke that needs to be constantly nagging him. Just make sure you concentrate on having a LOOSE lead. Meaning, snap him back when he STARTS to pull away from the heel and immediately loosen the lead enough so that it forms a swaying curb at the bottom. Use the prong for a split second correction at a time. The fact that he has already shown progress is encouraging. Lucky you! You have a boxer! They are lovely dogs...

The prong / pinch collar, when fit properly is far and away a more efficient, effective and humane training device. The choke is just that, you are choking the dog with the dog's throat being the only obstacle to the collar's terminal constriction. Use what is effective and humane but I despise the choke for training. Be careful in that you haven't over estimated your dog's hardness, it's a mistake I have made in the past. Good Luck.

I recently purchased the prong collar from a trainer here in Hawaii. I had read so many positive things about it that I decided to use it on my strong puppy who is 5 months old. She walks wonderfully with it!! I wouldn't go back to a choke collar now.

Let me extend this a bit. My 3 1/2 month old pup started with the Tom Rose kennel last week. They put him on a prong collar. At first I was hesitant and asked a bunch of questions - had our first lesson with it.

I've been using it for three days now and I think it's working well. I use it for 3 things; teach sit, teach down and stop pulling. I just snap it a bit and the pup's reaction tells me if the correction is too hard - did that once and he let me know. I never pull and I give a LOT of praise and treats.

This pup's high prey has not changed an ounce, continues with a great attitude, etc. I don't think it is having any negative effect on our bond, his behavior, etc.

It's just that he can't chase the cat any more, annoy our 14 year old dog, or act like a wild dog in the house. He is doing well on sit - I drop the leash and walk around - he stays. Same with down. I put him in sit before I go out the door and he is getting better on waiting until I release him. I'm doing three 15 minute session a day and taking him on two 1/3 mile walks with it. I let him goof around, sniff, etc., but he can't pull.

Honestly, if I was limiting my training to withholding treats as corrections, he would have killed the cat by now, been hurt by the 14 year old dog and I would be seeking MAJOR therapy.

So far, so good - but I'm very careful to ALWAYS have a loose leash except when correcting - and then just a quick tug.

Doyle

Well, no prong on my pup so far. Positive motovation methods only. Do they work, yes, but I don't think as fast as compulsion. I think with using prong to correct gets the disired results much quicker.

Then how does it affect the pup as it matures. Proberly most issues that you will have to deal with as the pup matures are a result of over correction and lack of correction.

There's a fine line that as a handler/trainer you have to straddle. That's what makes some trainers standout from the rest. JMHO for what it's worth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

i keep training motivational until the pup is 4 months old.
after that it depends a lot on the dog.
right now, i have 6 dogs. 3 wear a prong, 3 don't.
i have a dog that is 2 1/2 and a dog that is 1 1/2 and a 6 month pup on flats.
i have 2 3 year olds and a 6 month old pup on prongs.
i do not use choke collars for correction. IMO, prongs are more humane.
so a lot depends on the dogs pain levels, drives, hardness, trainability, compliance. i do follow the fundamental training steps. learning has to come before correcting.

I use positive training till I feel that I can no longer make progress in speed or precision without adding big distractions. I will then start adding aversive training as necessary to my positive training methods. Distraction training will always be paired with compulsion. I don't have an age limit really.

If I had the time and didn't have to work for a living, I would have probably waited a little longer. But this pup is so hyper and full of drive that I don't feel remaining with strictly positive reinforcement would get it done in the next two or three decades.

I know many probably disagree, but I feel comfortable with it and the trainer at Tom Rose - so, that's it.

Doyle

I dont use compulsion in formal obedience until after 12 months at least. I like to let him be as crazy as possible for his first year within limits of course. All imprinting as a pup and young dog. I have had very nice results. I threw the prong on after a year and used some nice hard corrections....not alot, I dont have to if I get one good one in...and then praise...then reward after. Drive - Compulsion - Drive (Flinks).
I tell you what, his obedience is spectacular at 14 months and its a nice happy working dog picture...ears up all the time tail wagging. I personally can tell when a dog is trained with too much compulsion...I dont like that picture... the dog does it because it has to.
I personally think 4 - 5 is too early to use compusion for obedience if your training a SchH dog or competition obedience.
I guess if you just want home obedience thats fine...alot of trainers use compulsion for that as they dont care how it looks as long as the dog does it.
Just my opinion... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />