Here's my situation: I have two 13-month-old Tibetan mastiffs, one male and one female. (I also have a 5-year-old Jack Russell terrier, but that's a different conversation.) I have been doing obedience classes with both TM's since they were puppies, and have generally had good results -- for TM's. Not to get into a long discussion of breed characteristics, but TM's are notoriously independent-minded.

The AKC-affiliated club that I train with has a strict policy prohibiting prong collars. I have found after a few months of training with choke-chains, that (1) when the dogs need correction, the force required can sometimes be extreme, so I worry about injury (I have read some of your website, Mr. Frawley, and you've convinced me, and I also look back with regret on my experience with another dog who had tracheal problems later in life), and (2) there is literally a rut in the fur around their necks, which looks awful. In addition, my girl has started lunging (aggressively) at other dogs on our walks lately, probably a developmental issue related to her first heat a couple of months ago. This is a protective breed and she seems to be coming into her own on that front. Interestingly, though, she is not hostile at obedience classes -- I think that she might have decided to define our entire neighborhood as her territory, which certainly would not be unheard of for a TM.

I've surveyed as many of the websites as I have been able in a short time, and I am convinced that the prong collar would be the best alternative, but I still get resistance from the trainers. I mentioned that I had read about a German study comparing injuries as between prong collars and choke chains, and that actually got some attention from one of them. However, no website actually seems to have a link to the study -- a number of sites mention it, but it all comes back to a comment in a seminar by "Ann Marie Silverton." Does anyone know whether the study actually exists, and, if so, how to get a copy (preferably in English)?

There are reasons to stay with this training club independent of the collar issue, and I could just train with a prong collar when I'm not in class, but I'd really like to try to change some minds.

A second question: Does the training video offered on this website show proper placement of the prong collar on a dog with a substantial dewlap? It is a little hard for me to visualize from the website picture with the Doberman. It seems as if it would be difficult to get it as high as suggested. Do I just put it where it seems to fit most naturally, i.e., the narrowest part of the neck?

Thanks for your help.

I was convinced by a woman with an Akita when I spoke to her about the prong she had on her dog. With my permission, she took it off and put it around my arm and tugged on it. It didn't hurt, although more force could be applied to do so. I do get a better response from my dogs (Bouviers) and they have thick fur and the chain doesn't get stuck not releasing. See if your trainers will let you do it with them. If not, maybe look for more open minded trainers. I have no expertise with the collars so I would defer any training questions to other people.

Some additional info...

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Interesting that the original article appeared in the Aug, 1998 AKC Gazette.

Bryan,
The problem that you're running into with an AKC affiliated training club is common, and likely to get worse for you with time, considering the rare and difficult breed that you've chosen to train.

It's very unlikely that any of the AKC club members will have any experience training a TM, or even aggressive dogs in general. Usually the training clubs just dismiss or ban dogs that display aggressive traits in class.

Believe me, I use to be the head instructor for the largest AKC OB club in my state for several years. All the other instructors simply wanted aggressive dogs to go away - they just don't want the problem and they almost will never have the skills or mindset to be able to give you good advice regarding your dogs, much less help in training them.

So I'd advise you to seek trainers that have some understanding of your breed and the skills to train aggressive breeds. And you usually won't find them in an AKC club.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
It's very unlikely that any of the AKC club members will have any experience training a TM, or even aggressive dogs in general. Usually the training clubs just dismiss or ban dogs that display aggressive traits in class.

Believe me, I use to be the head instructor for the largest AKC OB club in my state for several years. All the other instructors simply wanted aggressive dogs to go away - they just don't want the problem and they almost will never have the skills or mindset to be able to give you good advice regarding your dogs, much less help in training them.

So I'd advise you to seek trainers that have some understanding of your breed and the skills to train aggressive breeds. And you usually won't find them in an AKC club.

Interestingly, I have had no aggressive behavior in class, so I don't anticipate, at this point, being asked to leave on that account. I actually like these people, and class participation is one of several methods that I use to socialize my TM's.

The male is, at this point, just a big goof, not aggressive to anyone -- this breed matures very slowly; he didn't really understand (at 11 months) what was going on when the female was in season. I'm sure it won't be like that next time -- fortunately, with TM's it's only once a year.

The female tends to react to other dogs when we are out walking or at the strip mall where we go to sit outside our local Starbucks (another of my socialization exercises). When we are out walking, it is a lunging problem; that's where I most feel the need for additional control, and it sounds like the prong is likely to help with that -- the choke collar certainly is not, she just ignores it and I have to drag/hold her back bodily. At the strip mall, she alerts and starts barking at any dog that she becomes aware of, at any distance. Usually, she breaks the down-stay and comes to a sit. I correct her immediately, but it continues to be a problem. When a strange dog comes within about 15 feet or so (with or without eye contact), she breaks the stay, barks, and tries to lunge at it. Again, it becomes a wrestling match, as she just ignores the choke collar.

The response I get from the trainers, is not so much hostility to the collar as it is, "We really don't know how to train with them, and besides, we think they look scary to our clientele."

Get a ecollar and when you walk the dogs when they lunge let them feel the discomfort of the collar so they can relate their lunging to the discomfort of the ecollar. With such massive dogs the correction with a leash and collar would have to be conssiderable to kill this behavior for the life of the dogs. With the ecollar you can work on their head so to speak they can not identify the source of the deterent. their is a famous world renown ecollar trainer on this board his name is lou castle maybe he will step in and add a few words on the subject. thank you and good luck

Peter K. Burian wrote: their is a famous world renown ecollar trainer on this board his name is lou castle maybe he will step in and add a few words on the subject.

LC: HOLY COW "famous world renown ecollar trainer!" Peter you're hired as my new publicist! LOL

LC: Bryan what you're seeing at your AKC club is a hijacking of America by the "political correctness club." As Tom Bearden mentions the article that was very pro-pinch collar was first published in the AKC Gazette about 6 years ago. Since then they've very much been taken over by a "kinder, gentler" movement that's rampant in other parts of the world and is making inroads here as well. I've always let a dog tell me what level of correction he needs in order to respond. If he responds to a harsh voice, that's what he gets. If he needs a correction from a choke chain, that's what he gets. If he needs a sharp correction from a pinch collar . . . you get the picture. My primary tool is an Ecollar, as Peter mentions and using one, I can tailor the precise level of correction to the dog's needs at any given moment.

LC: And so for some "training director" to tell you or me what my dog needs is simply absurd. My first advice is to get as far from those people as quickly as you can, but you say that there are reasons for you to stay. The problem with your solution, to use the pinch collar only away from the AKC field is that the dog will soon become "collarwise." He'll perform when the pinch collar is on, but won't when it's not. You can do this but it will greatly prolong the training. You could stop going to their trainings for awhile until you had the situation under control. A few years back I had a SAR worker whose dog wouldn't recall. I suggested an Ecollar but her group wouldn't permit them. They told her that it would ruin her dog. She stopped going to SAR training for awhile and worked the Ecollar until the recall was very good and then rejoined the group. People were amazed and asked how she'd done it. She didn't tell them for several sessions so they could see how well the dog still worked and that she had a good working recall. Then she told them. Right after that I did a seminar for them and now, a couple of years later, almost all of them have their dogs on the Ecollar. I don't expect that you'll change their minds at the AKC though. They're not interested in the facts, they have an agenda.

LC: For the lunging problem I'd suggest that you take a look at my article on Crittering and Dog to Dog Aggression, on this forum at http://www.leerburg.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000028#000001

Lou Castle wrote: "Bryan what you're seeing at your AKC club is a hijacking of America by the 'political correctness club.'"

BV: I understand that. When it became apparent that I had a problem, and I realized that the choke chain was not going to work over the long term, I discussed it with the trainer in the "sub-novice" class. I was surprised that he was actually receptive to my description of the German study comparing the results of the use of choke and prong collars. Maybe the fact that he owns Briards made him more receptive on both anatomical and esthetic grounds. Anyway, it seemed to me that if there was some possibility of these people actually looking at a study, it was worth giving it to them. That's why I posted my initial question: Does anyone actually have a copy or know how to get one, preferably in English?
Lou Castle wrote: "My first advice is to get as far from those people as quickly as you can, but you say that there are reasons for you to stay."

BV: I have a couple of reasons for wanting to continue with the organization. One is continuing socialization to strange dogs. TM's are notorious for being difficult in this area. This is my chance to have my TM's in a room (it's an indoor class) with a dozen or so dogs, often new ones, every other week. (I alternate the two at a weekly class.) Second, given the TM's notoriety for aloofness and independence, I find obedience work to be my best opportunity to interact with these two. Except for the squeamish reaction on the collar issue, I feel that I have gotten pretty good value from this group, better than I got from other trainers with earlier dogs. I live in the close-in Virginia suburbs of Washington, DC, and thorough socialization is a must. I haven't really found another trainer or group that I like very well (if you think this group is PC, you should hear what some of the others are spouting), so leaving may not be an option. Of course, if someone can point me to an alternative in my area that works, I'd certainly look at it. As a generalization, the balance of the drives in these dogs is really different from what most dogs exhibit, so I'd hesitate, for example, to go to a trainer (like my first) who trains using the military model (he was a former Air Force dog handler who thought all dogs were basically the same).

Also, when I said "AKC-affiliated," I should have been more clear. They run an AKC-sanctioned obedience trial once a year. I don't know whether that puts them in a particular niche or not. It is a big club, and I have only dealt with three trainers and an administrator. I have only discussed the German study with one instructor, so I'm not making any assumptions either way about whether minds can be changed. There may or may not be an agenda at this level. I do understand that there are restrictions on collars in competition under AKC rules, but I don't know how far down that might extend.

I had some thought that when these two mature into really large balls of fluff, I might want to have them certified as therapy dogs. From my preliminary research, it looks like at least a CGC would be required for that, which is another reason to continue with this group in some form, since I know I can get that through them.

Thanks for the link to the article. I skimmed it, and it looks helpful.

Bryan

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Bryan regarding the article you asked about; the German one showing neck damage on dogs trained with choke chains v. none on dogs trained with pinch collars; I've been on several lists where inquiries were made regarding this study. No one has ever been able to come up with either a link or information on the actual study. Others agree with your statement that it seems to originate with a comment made by a trainer at a seminar.

Perhaps it's an urban legend and perhaps it's real. I look forward to anyone finding and presenting it.