When we went to the beach, Gypsy’s prong collar accidentally got wet, so it started to rust. I scrubbed it with steel wool, but couldn’t get all of the rust off, so I decided I’d donate it and just buy a new one. I went to Superpetz, and was getting ready to measure one to make sure it was the right length, when this lady walks up behind me and says “You know, those things are dangerous.” I looked up at her and said “These? No. They aren’t dangerous.” I noticed by her shirt that she was one of the trainers that teaches the obedience classes there. She said that they could get caught on things and I told her that I was NOT one of those people that leaves a training collar on my dog all the time. Gypsy only wears it for training and walks. She said “Oh, I didn’t mean that I thought you were, but it could still accidentally get caught on something even during training.” I looked at her like she was stupid and she proceeded to tell me how she had seen a lot of dogs with collapsed tracheas, fractured vertebrae in their necks, and fur and skin rubbed off of their necks because of collars like that. Well, that kind of irked me because for one, a trainer should be better educated than that, and two, a trainer should be open to all kinds of training devices (and know how to properly use them) rather than trying to talk someone out of buying one just because she didn't like it. I looked at her, held up the prong that I was getting ready to measure, and said “More than likely, the dogs you are referring to that had all those problems got them from a regular slip collar. This type of collar has a limited slip (and I showed her). It cannot tighten any more than that, and it applies steady pressure all the way around the dog’s neck, as opposed to a slip collar that can keep on tightening and tightening and tightening, and only applies the correction on one place on the dog’s neck, at the ring. Most people don't give a proper correction with a slip collar, and also don’t even know how to fit a slip collar correctly, and end up putting it on backwards and upside down, which causes it to tighten and not release. And when a slip collar gets caught on something, and the dog pulls to try to get away, it just keeps getting tighter and tighter. There’s where your dogs with the collapsed tracheas and rubbed off fur got it from. These collars are a hundred percent more humane than any slip collar. If you know how to fit them the right way on the dog, you don’t have to worry about putting them on upside down, you don’t have to worry about them choking the dog, you don't really have to worry about giving the correction properly, since it does apply pressure all the way around, you don’t have to worry about them causing damage to the dog’s neck, or rubbing off fur, and you don’t have to worry about them not releasing after the correction. I know what I’m doing. My last one rusted because it got in the ocean, and I’m just buying one to replace it.”

She looked at me for a second and apologized and said she was just trying to help and that everyone didn’t understand those collars. I told her I understood her trying to make sure that I knew what I was getting, but that she needed to look a little more at the statistics before she went telling people that prong collars were cruel or dangerous. She acted embarrassed and walked away. I can’t believe she actually was trying to talk me out of buying one; and all because SHE didn’t understand, and therefore didn’t like them! I swear I can’t wait until I’m a dog trainer. I’ll put all of them around here out of business!

Originally posted by Kristen Cabe:
... she had seen a lot of dogs with collapsed tracheas, fractured vertebrae in their necks ... I wonder if she is someone who recommends the Gentle Leader and/or the Halti to people who don't know how to use them? Have seen way too many people want a quick fix and damage the dog's vertebrae by whipping their dog around on those ... if they are lucky, the dog only needs a couple of chiropractor appointments.

Doesn't matter what training tool you use, you have to use them properly or they can all do damage -- even a flat collar.

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I wonder if she is someone who recommends the Gentle Leader and/or the Halti to people who don't know how to use them? Have seen way too many people want a quick fix and damage the dog's vertebrae by whipping their dog around on those ... if they are lucky, the dog only needs a couple of chiropractor appointments.

There is a new head halter out in the Canadian market. It has a pulley system in the back.

http://newtrix.ca/aboutus.php

I refused to buy a head halter until starting flyball. Prong collars are not allowed on tournament grounds <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I bought this one and am quite pleased with it. I have arthritis in my neck from a skiing accident several years ago...I know what it feels like! If I hadn't found this collar, I would have put up with the pulling during tournaments because I would not put the conventional style on my dog.

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com

So this new thing works like a Hackamore on a horse? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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So this new thing works like a Hackamore on a horse?

I don't know how a Hackamore works....

It's like a Halti or Gentle Leader but instead of clipping the lead under the chin, there is a pulley system at the back (behind the ears) to apply pressure to stop pulling. That way, if the dog lunges, it doesn't get it's head snapped around and "whiplashed".

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com

the object in horse-handling is to "collect" the horse.....to allow movement in a restricted area behind the bit or hackamore and ahead of the pressure (riders legs, heels, whip, etc.) the use of a halti is nowhere near that intricate. it operates on the premise that if you control the direction of the head, you will control the direction of the dog. obviously not a good choice for a large, willful or strong dog. you wind up lugging the dog around in much the same way as you would a horse if you used a halter, but no other means of keeping him "collected."
in all honesty, i have seen the halti used, with success, as a tool to gain better eye contact. this was done by a trainer who preferred not to use toys or treats, but praise in training. it worked quite well for him. i would imagine that the halti could also be used in tracking training for young dogs, with the line running under their body and between the legs.
mentioned previously......the whiplash thing is definately something to avoid. as with other training devices, the halti needs to be used intelligently by the right person and on the right dog. i did not have success is using it myself. it was wrong for me and the dog i had at the time. i would consider trying it again on another dog, especially a puppy where corrections are not appropriate.
mechanics and plumbers have all kinds of things in their toolboxes. no tool works in every situation, but the right tool for the job makes all the difference in the world. the dog trainer's duffle bag is the same way....all kinds of tools and devices, treats and rewards. knowing what to use and when makes the difference in the dog, too.

I've found a use for haltis and gentle leaders. I use a modified halti for my driving dogs, it is sewn so the bottom cannot tighten. Then I run reins from "d" rings sewn on either side of the halti. This resembles a horse halter. The dogs respond to the lightest cues for a change in direction, slow, or halt. At first I use a prong or choke chain collar to reinforce the slow or halt command. The gentle leaders are perfect for ponying a dog at the side of the driving cart, usually the "pony" dog wants to run next to the dog that is hitched, allowing signals to come from behind. I'm beginning to think I'm an equipment junkie!! Susan

Wow. That thing certainly looks different. There is another thing on the market that's similar. It's called a "Canny Collar".


I don't know what this lady would have recommended to me, because I didn't let her get that far. It's amazing how some people become trainers though, and then people will just believe anything they say because they don't know any better.

I understand where you are coming from Kristen. It goes from one extreme to another. I get people asking me what the prong collar is all the time and I get some pretty nasty looks. But the truth is without it I would not be able to control my GSD, he already weighs more than half of what I do and is growing by the day. On the other extreme, our local kennel club thought it would be neat idea to start teaching Sch, well my trainer went to check it out, they had prongs on puppies, and I am talking 8 week old puppies. Why did they do this, because this so called trainer running the place said so. So, my trainer and I are going back this week to watch and try to show them without them knowing what we are doing, how using a toy or food can make it fun for the dogs! I feel so sorry for those pups.
I have learned alot about training on here from the forums and the articles, and I think Ed's words are great for the prong "it's power steering for dogs".


Christina

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they had prongs on puppies, and I am talking 8 week old puppies.

Good grief! Sounds like that trainer needs a bunch of lessons in basic dog training!
A prong is a "correction" tool, not a "learning" tool...and what could an 8 week old puppy have learned that needs a prong correction??

Disturbing...