I bought a show line female 6 years ago, from older lines that I got lucky with. Medium drive, calm in house, very good nerves (sits calmly by my side with fireworks going off overhead and all around), high drives in schutzhund (got SchH 2 and 3 last summer). Very good tracker, great food drive, great ball drive. Very nice fight with helper. Not hard at all toward the handler. Very easy to train.

I have bred her three times. First a to Verwin Blitsaerd son Ivan-Roy V. Dreisterhof. I got really nice drive good tough dogs soft ears. Next to Lasso the sieger which killed the drive. Then to Karat's Vitus which so far is OK.

I probably want to start breeding more toward working dogs (I have very little tolerance for poor working ability). Would I be better off starting from a working female even if I can't find one that works as well as my current female or should I try to go to working lines that are from similar ancestors?

Looking for opinions and rational.

it really depends on what your goals are...SPECIFICALLY! Are you after tracking dogs, intense protection dogs, dogs easier to handle or more stubborn? I took a quick look at your bitch's pedigree, there's nothing in there that can't be built off of, as she has some good "Old Conformation" lines, that still knew how to work, and some of the "newer" showlines are known for producing working ability (Cello Romerau in her sire line). You have to know exactly where you want to go with it, and how to manage it even 3 gens down the road. You've got a decent starting point, you just need to figure out where you're going and choose wisely from there.

I'm trying to breed to the world standard. I would be happy to reproduce the traits my female has. What I feel I needs more of is improved crushing grip. If she is going to lose any points it's in the grip. Also overall hardness. If a helper really hurt her I think she would come off the bite. I have the impression from one of the Leerburg dogs I work that he would only get pissed. I kinda like that.

Work and Show...there's no comparison.
What do you mean by the world standard...the SV's?
If you are going to breed show then do it. I don't agree or like it when people dilute the working lines by breeding with show....your just going to get mediocore at best.
My advice....Don't breed. There are enough show dogs and the breed has been ruined enough.
If you do breed...do it for the right reasons...WORKABILITY WORKABILITY WORKABILITY.
Just my normal response <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Pat

I don't have any intentions of breeding a show dog. I couldn't care less about breeding a dog that will competed in the Sieger show. I have no intention of breeding a dog to compete in the sieger show if it can't work. I understand your ideas about not diluting thw working lines. My question is if I currently have a show dog that works better than most working dogs,that is also a good mother, has good hips, should I abandon breeding her and purchase a working female to breed. It won't be easy to find a better female because no one will sell a bitch of that quality.

On your page the Dam is shown as: V Keasha vom Steffen-Haus, SchH 1, Kkl-1a, OFA (Good) and V Keasha vom Steffen-Haus, SchH 3, Kkl-1, OFA (Good) . Would you clarify that? What is your definition of "golden middle" as in breeding?

I got her 2 and 3 this summer and I quess I missed that. Thanks.

so, if you want better grips and a little more hardness towards the decoy, you need to research and find a stud that possesses those qualities, not just in himself, but in his bloodlines. Do bloodlines tracing, trying to find a stud that goes back on Claudius v Hain or Junker v Nassau repeatedly. This will add the grip and strengths you desire, you already possess the sharpness and good working ability through your multiple paths to Mutz Pelztierfarm in your bitch's pedigree. Now it's just time to select wisely to bring in what is missing, and you might not (and probably won't) get it in the first breeding, but you will need to select wisely and carry forward from there. Like I said before, with all the research I've done, you don't have a bad start, I've seen people trying to work with much worse. What most here that are making comments on the bitch (yours) don't understand is that she shares a lot of common heritage with modern working dogs, but with fewer paths to the "pillars of working dogs" (Claudius & Junker). Start doing research and choose wisely, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

What is your definition of "golden middle" as in breeding.

I quess everyone's would be different. I want a dog that is healthy with good hips, great working ability, and the structure to do the work. Yes I also care about superficial things like a males should not have a thin female head or a dog should not be to light in pigmentation.

Mike,

Thanks I'll do that. I'm always doing research and I'll see how those dogs might match up with her lines.

Eric