DDR vs BRD
#54541 - 05/05/2002 09:22 PM |
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Hi,
Some say that DDR GSDs are not so good as west german dogs, they have good hips and pigment, but are often handler soft. Many rumours about DDR dogs have been said since the wall came down. I recently read a story from an old lady thats have been involved with GSDs since 1920s, also i talked to a breeder of DDR lines here in Sweden abot the difference between these dogs. DDR also had show and workinglines, most dogs which placed high or won in the DDR schutshund meisterschaft was similar to the dogs in the west german bundessieger. Don von Rolandsteich was a showdog foremost, but compared to arminius and other showbreeders he produced some good things in his offspring,like good hips,pigment, and the breeder I talked to said he rather have don in the pedigree than the west german winerau type. There was also breeders who only produced dogs for the military and police, and there you wouldn´t find many dogs in the pedigree that was involved in the DDR bundessieger. It´s true that you get the impression that some DDR dogs could be a bit soft,especiallly against the handler, especially in the old days. The explanation about this was that the eastgermans seldom used motivation in the obedience for example, the dog should obey even if it wanted or not,therefore it sometimes looks boring and "soft". Even today there are old trainers that use prong or electric colars on very young dogs without using motivation and think he could get result with these methods. A dog that could stand this treatment are not soft in my eyes, according to the breeder I talked to. Today there are few good DDR dogs left, but even in the westgerman working GSDs the situation is not good, there are often the same dogs in the pedigree of todays westgerman GSDs, so they also have a small breedingstock. The rumours that the best dogs disapeared after the wall came down are not true, many dogs was sold to USA and japan, but the germans kept the best dogs for themselves. The biggest difference in DDR dogs and BRD dogs,is that BRD dogs often could be hectic and stressfull, they are not so relaxed. The DDR dogs have been very important for servicework, like the chezch GSD has proved. DDR dogs has naturall sharpness and some suspicion of people combined with good aggression, but still with controll and balanced drives. Many of Swedens best working GSDs have lines that go back to a dog named Odin vom andhers hofer ufer, bred by Werner Dalm stralsund(famous DDR person) in the 70s. He has 424 registred puppies, 98% HD-free, and has about 60 offsprings from the servicedog facility here in Sweden that was owned by the state and breed their own dogs for servicework.
Regards
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54542 - 05/09/2002 01:16 PM |
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Low intresst for DDR dogs on this board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54543 - 05/09/2002 02:46 PM |
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I started out with a dog with a lot of DDR in him. It was an interesting experience... in some good ways, and in some not-so-good ways.
I agree with most of what you say above in regards to the differences between BRD and DDR lines.
Some people I know worked with Bodo vom Graefental when he came to the United States. By all accounts, a very impressive dog who had both excellent conformation and dynamite working ability. He wound up at Fidelco Guide Dog School in Connecticut where he stood at stud and produced both guide dogs for the blind and police service dogs (the State of Connecticut got most of these). I believe Bodo was one of the best GSDs who ever lived.
Also, Stig, compliments on your English. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Pete Felknor
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54544 - 05/09/2002 03:27 PM |
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Hi Pete.. I agree about Bodo.. I was lucky enough to work with Bodo for many years.. until the day he died.. He contributed hugely to the guide dog gene pool.. stable in his temperment.. and serious as can be! He lived to a good age of almost 15 years.. and his progeny is still the life blood of Fidelco.
Jody
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54545 - 05/09/2002 03:36 PM |
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Thanks for the response, Jody... we probably have some mutual friends <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Since Stig has tried to get a discussion going on the DDR lines, I will volunteer a strongly-held belief of my own: Dogs like Lord vom Gleisdreieck were bred on much too heavily over here, while some of the truly great DDR dogs got overlooked (like Bodo). I've seen a lot of Lord progeny and with some very notable exceptions, they could be pretty nasty beasts. People bred on Lord because they wanted dogs that were "serious." Poor reason to breed to any stud, IMHO. By going back to Bodo and being judicious in their choice of brood bitches, they could have had a much more rounded product. And they could have had their SERIOUSNESS too...
Pete Felknor
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54546 - 05/09/2002 03:39 PM |
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What is BRD? I agree that some East German dogs are very nice and the trainers often used strict complusion. I have only seen one person use complusion from the start and have a dog heeling like it was heeling for a ball. This is the old school way, and this is how he trains. HE will later release the pressure by throwing and playing with a ball. but from the start he usees pressure. Most people cannot do this. In the case of the East Germans alot used the jerk and pull, and this made dogs like stated before look like they were tired of ob. or they ocched when corrected, but I doubt most dogs could tolarated that kind of training anyway. It is a tough call with some dogs, as they were hammered with Ob. from the start, so there really was no drive to start with. How many of these up ob. dogs now could take a correction and look good if they were not in drive. Not many I think. I like the sharpness of some of the East German lines.
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54547 - 05/09/2002 03:41 PM |
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BRD = Bundesrepublik Deutschland = West Germany
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54548 - 05/09/2002 05:23 PM |
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54549 - 05/09/2002 11:16 PM |
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Very informative, I hope you keep posting. I think Lord was bred on so much because he was Champion and there you go. I have seen some nice stuff out of Lord though. But really I am not sure if the line was over-bred here as there are not really many bloodlines that have been developed here in the States. Many good studs are excluded over here though . I have not come across many Kim Wersufer sons in America that were bred alot.Athough he is West German he was a great dog. What do you know about Lord?
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Re: DDR vs BRD
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#54550 - 05/10/2002 07:04 AM |
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Eastgermany had 15 different bloodlines to choose from, there are few people today that could explain their breedingprogramm, what was good and not so good. What I like with the DDR bloodlines is that they had preserved the originall character and the coulor and structure that the old time GSDs had. Because many of these dogs was important of the eastgerman state, they haven´t been so affected by shows and stupid policy. They were breed foremost for servicework, similar to the chezh GSDs. Many of the working westgerman GSDs are breed for very high prey and temperament for the sport of SCH, which affect their character. I guess Lord had both good and not so good dogs produced. It depends on the bitches he was breed to, but also which type of dog you prefer. Everyone have different opinions. We had a good dog standing as a stud for a while here in Sweden, he had excellent result on the Swedish policedog test, great courage and nerves. He had some famous DDR dogs in his pedigree and some west. His name is Djakka vom haus Larwin, you can see him in the studlist at TP-hundeguide. I think Ed has a link to this site. Another good dog we had was Quast vom Haus Dabbert, 100% DDR bloodlines, handler hard with excellent aggression and nerves. Don´t know who has this dog today thou.
Regards
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