Recently we had a discussion as to whether or not it is the norm for PPD dogs to be trained by the slip-the-sleeve method. The consensus was that it is, but that there are quality training methods that do not entail this method.

So my next question becomes, how would the decoy work and reward a PPD dog that has not been trained to take a slipped sleeve?

My take on it is that by slipping the sleeve the dog has won and the pressure is relieved. Right? So if the sleeve is not slipped how is the pressure removed which allows the dog to "win"?

My take on it is that the decoy should act as he would in the event he wasn't actually wearing a sleeve. In other words, when the dog bites hard the decoy should react to let the dog know that the dog is doing well. The decoy should position himself and vocalize so as to indicate that he is losing and the dog is winning. Once it is clear that the dog has clearly won the battle the handler can out the dog and the thoroughly beaten decoy can get up and quickly run away as fast as he can while the victorious dog looks on. The dog should receive heavy praise so as to know that he did a good job.

Please share your thoughts with me. Thank you in advance for the input.

What you described is working dog in pray drive. Same as slipping sleeve.

Dogs that are high in fight drive are revarded by biting and fighting alone.
Use bite suit for that dog and fight him hard and stare him in the eyes. Shouting real hard helps too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope we are not talking about immature dog?

If you're doing upper body bites, we just slip the entire jacket - quick and easy.

Training in fight drive is so rare that it's a long discussion. There are not more than 300 - 400 dogs in this entire country that fight in fight drive, and they usually aren't owned by PP folks. No one likes to hear that, but it's the truth.

Will, I guess I need to make the trip up there to Tallahassee and meet you and Ken and see what the heck you're talking about.

In the meantime I'll take a look and see if I can find any threads on "fight drive". Thanks.

Patrick,
You'd be more than welcome to come train with us! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Once again I think Patrick is still interested in putting the cart ahead of the horse.I get it. I know you you want a real live bonafied PPD. But you still should train in steps to, build a good bite with out hectic chewing, build confidence in the dogs bite. Make the dog believe that a great big solid bite will win the fight.There are lots of things your dog gets out of building the bite work correctly.(like capping the dog's drive)Once youve accomplished all that then you can go in to the kinds of work that seem more like real life scenarios.
I would also be interested in knowing where Will came with the 300 dogs that fight in fight drive.

David,
I'm just estimating, but I base the 300 to 400 total number of dogs from discussions I've had with some of the major providers of police canines in this country, and my own personal observations.

True fight drive is rare, and there are plenty of SchH clubs in the US that contain no dogs with fight drive. Sadly, there are working police canines in the same boat.

Again, people fool themselves a lot about their dog and fight drive. Dogs that work in prey and defense are *much* more common, and actually better suited for sport.

Slipping the sleave to reward the dog for a good full mouth bite was the way I was taught. However, the obvious danger is that the dog can become focused on the equipment rather than the man. This may be okay for a sport dog but you certainly can't have an equipment oriented dog if your working a ppd or police dog.

IMO, there seems to be critical time period for some dogs where this type of reward should cease. It is imperative that the decoy read the dog and in order to prevent this from happening. Regardless of what happens we always try to refocus the dog through civil agitation. If the sleeve is laying on the groung I like for the dog to pursue the decoy beyond the sleeve while being restrained by the handler.

I guess old habits die hard. I still like to reward the dog by slipping the sleeve in the early stages of bite work. We just keep a close read on where the dog is focusing.

Hello,

I just want to say that if we are talking about a dog that has the genetics for Fight Drive, then Ed's tape "The Bark and Hold for Police Service Dogs" is a great place to start to learn about training in Fight Drive. The pressure doesn't stop just because the dog bites, but the dog learns he has to work civily to end a training session.........I agree with Will, that if a dog does not have Fight Drive, then the dog will be working in a combination of Prey and Defense.

Will,

If your dog is working in Fight Drive, then do you let your dog carry the sleeve off the field, or does your dog get Drive Satisfaction by knowing he just dominated the decoy?