I had started a thread on social aggression already, but a certain few had ruined it for me so I am startin another one. There is so much more to this topic that I need to learn and find out about, and I wont stop until I do. If you reference the other social aggression topic then you will notice that I talk about dog aggression and human aggression pertaining to social aggression and how this is a valuable asset to a real protection dog. I have found out that this is mostly an inherited, genetic trait that can be controlled, and is very desirable in a good working dog. Besides the qualities I have mentioned, what other assets can relate to social aggression and how are these desirable in a true working dog? Anybody that was helpful in the other thread has my ears(?) for answers(you know who you are).

Hi Howard

I view social aggression as having the potential to be a 'positive' trait; but definitely not a trait many could 'deal with' effectively (nor should). I remember reading and doing some research on it many moons ago that socially aggressive dogs also tended to have high levels of fight drive. Studies/articles suggest that there is definitely a correlation between social aggression and fight drive.

There is so much more to it than just this but the basics of it are the need for the dog to control, dominate, and take lead in every aspect of its life and not just during engagement. This makes these type of dogs unlikely to score top points reliably and consistently in competitions for some obvious reasons; nor perhaps ideal as pets; but it can make them more than suitable if not ideal (in the right hands of course) for some real scenarios.

Anyways just my take on it.

Good topic by the way.

Brigita

Howard,
I think Brigita brings up good points.
I often point out that my current dog is a trade off, as I know some of his behaviors ( like constantly scanning for a fight ) will cost me points in SchH competition, but I'll trade that for a dog that will actually protect me . And he'd suck as a pet - in an uninformed pet owner's hands, he'd be taken to the Humane Society within a week.

But he's still a suitable dog for me, considering my life's experiences. And real protection dogs are a lot more rare than people think - I still think that over 95% of pet dogs, and even 75% or more of SchH dogs would retreat in the face of a real life, determined attacker.

Good post Brigita, very helpful info. It has always made sense to me that a socially aggressive dog that is constantly dominant and looking for a fight, so to say, will have high levels of fight drive. You know, I have always thought, but not quite sure, that you can actually see the fight drive in the dog before fight drive is really trained into the dog. It wont be the same thing, of course, but I have wondered about this.


Originally posted by Will Rambeau:

And real protection dogs are a lot more rare than people think - I still think that over 95% of pet dogs, and even 75% or more of SchH dogs would retreat in the face of a real life, determined attacker. Will, you are right about this, except I think it would be more like 99% pet dogs and 90% Sch dogs. I see TOO MANY dogs that dont need to be on the field. I think sch is a great thing, but more needs to be done in the sport to preserve good traits, like social aggression, in real working dogs. I dont see it happening on this side of the globe. There is a guy that trains with the club in my area and at the last trial, he attempted to get his sch 2. I dont know how in the hell this dog got his sch 1 but the dog was so horrible in every phase of the trial that I thought the judge was just going to ask the poor guy to leave. He was an american bred dog from abackyard breeder so it made sense why. But anyway, the judge passed him. I thought, Christ! anybody can get a title after I saw that. It was absolutely the worst sch performance I have ever seen. I think the judge just felt sorry for him and I think thats bull****. You wont see this in Germany. I think this guy has every right to enjoy his dog, but he should stick to something the dog can do. Sch is supposed to separate the sh**** dogs from true working dogs that offer alot to the breed.

You know, I would like to hear some opinions from people like Ed and Kevin who train and breed dogs of this calibur.

I would just like to add this because it is something that gets under my skin. For people to say that social aggression is undesirable, is lack of understanding of the ethics of a good working dog. I saw that on the previous topic I started on this that got stopped because of the group who did not know what they were talking about and ruined it. To me, these are the kind of people who are bringing the true working dog down. They think they can get a dog from working lines and then try to make a house pet out of it and then bash dogs like mine and call them monsters or uncontrollable. Any good working dog can be a great pet. But Im willing to bet these dogs were not origianally bred to be pets. THEY ARE BRED TO WORK. Deal with and control the dominance and social aggression or give the dog to someone who will. A true working dog must be kept in a controlled environment all of the time. I want to thank everyone who posted positively on this and everyone who followed me to this thread to discuss this matter professionally. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Howard, no colorful language on the board please!

There are plenty of dogs who trial in Europe that suck, BTW. LOL

I knew i had it somewhere...my bookmarks are really a mess.

Here it is:
<a href="http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-english/aggression-dogs-classification3.html" target="_blank">Joel Dehasse, Maya Braem, Sabine Schroll:
"Aggressive behaviours in dogs: a new descriptive-contextual classification"</a>

Now that is nice. Clears things up a bit for me by puting social aggression as a wrapper (um, class?) for different(but similiar) aggressive behaviours.

Very interasting work by the way, anyone has something similiar to share?

Sorry for the duplicate - I hit reply instead of edit and cant delete it.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Howard Scott:
A true working dog must be kept in a controlled environment all of the time. I am not trying to be difficult but would like you to expound.

A true working SAR dog and Herding dogs are *NOT* in controlled environments all the time and a SAR dog is acutally out of sight much of the time -- and they really cannot be bruising for a fight when they have a job to do. I would dare say the same is true of a seeing eye dog.

Now I would have you consider that the above are also TRUE WORKING DOGS and do have a need to be "social" in a non agressive way.

I am not saying they need to be labs -- but they need to be able to work off lead in close proximity without tearing each other apart. A little bit of edge is not a problem and there are certainly dogs that simply cannot be worked together as something clicks between the two of them.....but in general.

So that is what I am struggling with on this thread. It adds a different layer of difficulty in finding a suitable GSD for real life work --- as there is such a focus on protection work as opposed to the dog as being a solid all round working dog

Hi all, haven't been on this discussion board for quite awhile as my PC took a dump and was off-line for almost a month - but playing catch up now!

Nancy, I too handle a SAR dog. My dog was bred by Ed Frawley and has very strong drives in EVERY department, and has had many successful finds in SAR and we recently got our *partnership* together in Schutzhund and had the High in Protection at our last Schutzhund trial. He also does lots of demos and PR's at grade schools, community events, etc., and has been conditioned since puppyhood to be very social with humans, because he is a working SAR dog first - but I don't allow a auditorium full of kids to surround him and pet him, etc. all at once. they must line up to meet him and I control it. Lot's of kids do not know how to pet a dog and he's a big boy and I suppose scarey looking to some of them that believe the uneducated opinions they might hear from at home that GSD's, Rott, etc., are all bad biting/mean dogs - I'm personally driven to change that opinon by example whenever I can.

Our SAR unit has very strict rules on dog aggression to humans or other dogs. It isn't tolerated and grounds for immediate dismissal. We are a multi-breed unit with 15 dogs, mostly females, two neutered males, and two whole males. The handler is held accountable and responsible for their dog's actions at all times.

Our dogs are not allowed to run around together, etc. at trainings. They have been taught to keep focus on their job and ignore distractions through constant proofing. My dog knows and understands I am the leader of our pack/relationship, and that didn't happen over night either as he has a VERY rank personality and would love to be the boss.

We place high merit on obedience in our unit and do not believe that high level obedience produces *velcro-SAR dogs*, meaning they loose their effectiveness and independance to search an area without their handler in sight. That might happen with a low drive and weak nerved dog I could see, but it has never posed a problem for our unit.

In the initial briefing at a search scene, I make the decision on how I will run my dog, on a track or area search dependant on the need and scenario. When it's an area search, I quarter the area into sections and send my dog on a directional search command back an forth in front of me and control the distance to what is needed for complete coverage.

I have worked along side other dog teams to our right and left and never had the aggression issues because I won't go out in the field with another SAR dog that is out of control and/or disobedient to it's handler.

So in that light, I am controlling the environment my dog works in the search arena. I am always aware of farmer's dogs, etc. that could be in the area and adjust my dog's distance from me accordingly as we approach. If I missed one and it came up and challenged my dog, do I think my dog would turn tail and run? Absolutely not, I have never seen that dog afraid of anything, anyone, or going through anything to reach his objective - ever. But that is why I've worked SO hard at obedience, understanding and a strong partnership with my dog - and I can read him. He clearly understands "Leave It" "Ows" and "Heir" and his drive to search is extreme at the least. That is the best any SAR handler can do to prevent dog aggression incidents, I don't believe a SAR dog should be held accountable for self-defense, but the handler should know how to break up a dog fight none-the-less and carry pepper spray on them (we are civilians) too. Prepardedness and Common Sense is the handler's responsibility.

That's my two cents worth about aggression!

Wendy Wied

Although the people posting comments regarding other types of work dogs also being true working dogs have a point, may a point out something?

Notice the forum that this discussion is in: "Personal Protection Dog Training"

So I'm saying that you're trying to make a point in the wrong place.

How often do you see the PPD trainers and people interested in that subject posting over on the SAR or Herding threads?

I guess Howard was in the wrong for not adding " Protection" to his quote of :

"A true working dog must be kept in a controlled environment all of the time."

So Howard, please add the word "Protection" to keep the Agility, SAR, Herding, etc. folks out of the threads...
I'm sure the canine Freestyle dancing trainers will be adding their two cents worth soon also.

Sheeesh! :rolleyes: