I am raising a bouvier pup (now 5 months old) hopefully as a personal protection/security dog. I have gone through bite development using rags, tugs, and I am now using slippable sleeves, both arm and leg. I am trying to expose him to as many options for body targeting as I can, but he definitely has a preference to go high. Sure it looks cool (he's only 20" at the shoulders right now, and he jumps up at my face level), but I've always felt leg bites to be more effective in putting someone down. Even if I work him up by teasing him with the leg sleeve and then put it on (that being the only peice of equipment), he hesitates to take it and jumps up to my chest looking for something else to bite. Do I go back to using a large tug and encourage him coming in low? Or Should I let his instincts to go high take over?

I'd rather not have to go back to too much tug work if it can be avoided. His prey drive isn't exactly a 10, and while he will play tug, he's much more enthusiastic when the equipment is on someone and he really gets to fight with them and not the equipment. Despite the lower prey drive (still not bad though, compared to most bouves)he's sharp as hell and doesn't back down to too much, and he ignores everyone but me, so I think he's got a lot of potential as a work dog (executive protection and event security).
Oh, and yes, he is still teething, but no worries, I don't let him fight too much right now for the equipment. I'm just working on getting his drive up. His fight once he's got a hold of something has never been an issue, it's trying to get him to give chase in the first place...
I'm still fairly new to the protection aspect of dog training, so any advice is greatly appreciated.

Since your dog is teething, I would just be doing Drive Work right now (like you said). I like tying a ball on a string or a small tug to a pole and wiggle it on the ground and making Prey Drive for your dog. Only do it for a couple of minutes a few times a day and don't give him a bite. I've seen this really bring the Prey Drive up in dogs!

To get the dog to target the leg, I would first get the dog on the bite and then bring the tug
(a tug with loops in both ends) down in front of my leg with one foot through a loop and the tug straight up in front of my leg, so the dog gets used to biting with the tug in a vertical posistion in front of the leg. After the dog is used to biting the tug in this way, then he should start to target it when it is held in this position right from the start of the bitework......you just have to read the dog and see what works.

Once you progress to the suit it will be a lot easier to train specific body parts….. be it legs, armpits, back, or chest. A good decoy will be able to help you focus your dog on each of these areas.

The debate on upper vs. lower body in personal protection training is still raging hard! (and always will I’m sure) Personally I like upper body work…. It’s allot harder to shoot me, stab me, hit me with a 65lb. snarler flailing from your armpit after he knocked you down. It goes without saying that a good PPD MUST bite the legs as well. My work dog was a "upper body biter" when I got him. You could kick at him and he would try to climb the leg to get at the arm or chest. We had to take him back to a tug on a leg and then progress him back to the suit to get him to take the leg. He will take the leg now if nothing else is offered but he is and always will be a upper body biter.

Will might know of a company that makes a “hidden leg sleeve” …. I watched a guy once try pulling jeans over scratch pants…… the big “Yowwwww” he let out on the first bite proved that to be a bad idea.

Thanks for the suggestions, keep 'em coming.
Speaking of good decoys, any suggestions for finding one in the Toronto area? One focused on actual work/protection dogs would be ideal, but I could live with a good sport helper for the first year or so. Would most SchH clubs have an issue with only doing the protection aspect of the training? Trying to teach my dog to track would be useless, unless he's tracking food he's not interested, but the few people that I've talked to involved in the sport suggested that if I am a member, I am expected to train in all aspects of the sport.

The important thing to remember with leg bites is the difference in presence or pressure from the decoy. I think your a little ahead of yourself with the breed of dog you have. Also don't compare them with other breeds, that will make you crazy. We teach legs first and much later arms. Bouvier's mature really slowly so again don't compare them to other breeds, but when they have it it is awesome. Try to remember later that upper body bites are much less pressure for the dogs and thats why they ignore the leg bites when available. Don't tell the schutzhund people though lol

Jeff, one quick question:
can you tell me how are upper body bites less pressure on dog? I mean, my understanding was that more confident dog bites higher. (i am not talking about leg or upper body preference).
We are now conditioning one dog to leg bites in every excercise except object guard and stockstellen. Much faster to grab leg in excape from transport and mandatory on bycicle. (i would do upper body bite on back attack but it is not my dog)

Jeff,
After looking over my original post, I can certaily see why you thought I might be a little ahead of myself, especially considering the breed. I just wanted to clarify that I don't expect the pup to be hitting a decoy any time soon, I'm just playing around with him trying to imprint a few different spots, since he always tries to hit way up high. I can't wait to get him on a bite suit, he's gonna be a natural for the armpit.

Considering that competitions are the last thing on my mind for this dog, do most still consider leg bites necessary?

Matthew,
Yep, the concept of the "hidden leg sleeve" is difficult to get into an actual working scenario. On leg bites, it's not the amount of padding that keeps the decoy from being injured but the amount of loose fabric that the dog can chomp onto ( instead of the decoy's rather sensitive leg area ). The only time I've really ever had my decoy complain ( and the guy is tough, tough, tough! ) was when we were training leg bites with Fetz, who could deliver a nasty bite through a padded leg sleeve and leave bruises that I don't even want to remember. Ouch! A dog doing a bite like that in real life puts the perp onto the ground and ends the fight rapidly ( although I still prefer upper body bites in most scenarios )

One idea to use that I've seen work is to simply cover the entire decoy/ bite suit with a huge "Chester the molester" type overcoat/ raincoat. By a used overcoat size 3XL at Goodwill ( buy all that they have, good dogs will tear through them at a rapid rate ) and it'll fit over most medium sized decoys in their bitesuit without much problem. Plus you can re-donate whatever shreads of the jacket that are left after a few training sessions and get a nice tax deduction. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And for the record, no dog that I'm training would see a sleeve at age five months, I consider that far too young for that level of training, especially with a dog that's slated to become a PP dog.

Will,

When I said sleeve, I should have clarified that this was not even a full puppy sleeve, it was a few rags wrapped in denim and velcro, so the size isn't an issue. What's wrong with using something like this with a young dog? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm very new to this and most of this board seems to really respect your opinion. The only reason I used something like this instead of just a tug is that this particular pup shows a lot more interest in things when they are actually on my body, and I figured I'd go with what my pup showed the most interest in. If Will (or for that matter just about anyone on this board) could explain why this is a bad idea, I'd be very appreciative.

Simon,
If the dog is biting well (read:confidently), I see no reason not to be working him with a 'sleeve'. Just be aware of the maturity level of a Bouv at 5mos vs. that of a Mal at the same age (most of my Mals are on the suit by that age).

We do a LOT of specific targeting in our training, regardless of the ultimate program for the dog (ASR, PP, PSD, Ring...etc.). For us, the most effective way to target a specific area is with the dog back tied, or restrained by the handler.

This way, the decoy can present ONLY the target area that the dog is supposed to bite. It does not matter what the dog is supposed to target, only that it be ALLOWED to bite only what is presented.

Once the dog is consistently taking the target, we move from the dog being stationary to the dog 'dragging' the handler into the targeted bite. When 'sleeves' are being used, the dog NEVER gets a free shot at the bite (i.e., all bites are 'restrained' bites).

This targeting method works equally well when the dog has progressed to the suit. When the dog is working on the suit, we go back to the beginning using 'restrained' bites, and allowing the dog to bite ONLY that which is presented as a target area.

Hope this helps.