Hi everyone...


I am new to this sight and after reading a few articles I know I have found what I was looking for. I can’t believe it took me so long to find this place. I have been doing searches on the net for a place just like this, a place that will teach me how to properly train my dog. From picking the right puppy out of a litter, to bring him home, to obedience training and prey drive etc.

I am in the process of purchasing a Presa Canario. The reason for my choice in Presa Canario is that (after seeing them on video and soon to make a trip to Red Star Kennel) I know that the Presa Canario is a very capable dog in the field of Personal Protection...
“The presa canario possess working ability, courage, stability of temperament, physical stamina, and intelligence for which it is renowned.”

The right Presa Canario (Red Star Kennel) with the right raising and training makes the ultimate working dog and companion. I found the right presa a few weeks ago and now I found the right training (Leerburg).

Now all I need to do is find the right helper for defense drive. One step at a time.


Jose Rivera

Jose,
I think you'd be wise to spend a little time and talk to professionals ( not the people that are trying to sell you any dog ) about PPD's before you go any further with this decision.
I wrote a short bit about Presa's and red-star kennel in your other post. I'm not directly attacking the breed or the kennel, but if you look at the claims made, they don't stand up.
These dogs as a breed just aren't that impressive when you take an honest look at them. If they could do all that the website claimed, they'd be in use *everywhere* - notice that they only compete in obscure sports with only a few hundred ( at the absolute most ) competitors nation wide. They're not in use in any official function by any country on this planet. If these dogs were so good, why aren't they in use by local police departments worldwide? Why don't we see them ruling the SchH fields? The reason - because they're mostly hype.
The Presa is a big dogs with a deep bark that will scare off most people - fine, that's all most people need from a dog for protection. But I have yet to see one with the nerves needed to be an actual ppd, and to me the fact that of the few dozen Presa's that I've seen ( several in protection sport competitions ) , not one would have been a dog that I'd allow to protect me. That's a bad sign.

Please don't confuse personal protection with dogs that compete in protection based sports. Those can be two entirely different things. Some of those sports are run fairly well, like PSA and ASR. Some of the protection sports are basically laughed at by knowledgeable dog people, like K9 ProSports.

You'll make a decision that you'll have to live with for the life of a dog. Really, spend a bit more time and do some real research about the subject of personal protection dogs. There is a lot of hype about the subject, and there are *many* kennels across the country that sell dogs to the uninformed. I have stated in this forum dozens of times that protection dog sales are one of the largest sources of fraud in the dog world today. And I stand by that statement still.
Be an informed consumer here, this is a long term decision.

Good luck!

Actually, I'm going to move this topic to Protection Dogs, as it has nothing to do with The Flinks video.

Jose,
Your statement:
"Now all I need to do is find the right helper for defense drive. One step at a time."

makes me worry a bit. I'm hoping that you've researched dog training enough to know that you train in prey drive first. Defense drive training is many steps down the line for a new dog.

Thank Will

I will take your advice and look around some more. One thing I know for sure is that I have found the right place to learn all about PP training. There is a lot to read on this sight. Last night I was up to 2am. Reading about dog attacks, proper way to separate them in a fight (alone & with help), Dumb & Dumber Q&A and the article about taking your puppy to a dog run or a park where they run free. I never realized how much responsibility you have as the leader of the pack... All this info is priceless.

My Statement "Now all I need to do is find the right helper for defense drive. One step at a time." Means that after I follow all the proper procedure in the Leergurg Training videos, and the time comes for defense drive training, I will use a helper (I will take him to a boot camp and use an experience helper)...

Thanks for everything Will... Jose Rivera

Jose,
You'll go blind reading everything that Ed has put up on this sight! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, you know what the steps needed are, great. If you're going to do it right, the first video to start with should be the "Training Drive, Focus, and Grip with Bernhard Flinks" http://www.leerburg.com/101e.htm
this video is worth it just to learn to train a dog in drive, which will be more fun for both you and the dog. A ppd won't have the strict requirement for grip that a SchH dog would, but learning the basics would still be to your advantage. The video even touches on nerve issues and mentions ppd vs. sport dogs, which is nice to know information.

And I've always found it harder to find a good prey helper than a defense helper, so if you already have the prey helper set up, you're ahead of the game.

Although this video is more sport oriented, the next video "Preparing Your Dog for the Helper" http://www.leerburg.com/310.htm
teaches you a lot of "self-helper work" that you can do solo with your dog, and I think it'd be worth your time to view.

Good luck!

Generally speaking, I agree with you Will. But I think if Jose talks with some of the people at Red Star who breed and train Presa's, he will find that the breed is not likely to work in prey like a more traditional herding dog will. My understanding is that a good Presa works in protection out of aggression that is triggered by their strong desire to protect the handler. I have read they are stimulated by non-pack members presenting them with a threat or challenge. I have also read some discussion about how sport oriented trainers that are use to starting in prey, and who haven't worked Presa's, write them off when they won't come into drive in prey. The same dog, with a different approach in protection training, can become a fierce protection dog and compete in sport as well. There are some old discussions about this issue on the Red Star discussion board.

Chip,
I'm strictly a defense helper - dogs find me threatening, and I can bring out defense in darn near any dog. And a lot of people have told me that I'm good at this portion of helper work ( have bitesuit, will travel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

But so far, my experience with Presa's ( and several other non-tradition breeds that are being touted as ppd breeds ) has been that the dogs will put on a threatening display, and then retreat when pressed. Without prey behavior by the decoy, the dogs don't engage. And I do this a lot, and I observe this first hand at many different locations and venues. When I see this behavior dozen's of time, I form an opinion about the breed. After I've seen over fifty times ( with the rare exception ) , I'm going to call it a behavior of the breed.

And I've read the discussions on that board. It sounds just a little like an excuse to me, and again, I'd point out the general lack of success that the breed has show in the traditional canine venues.
And some of their discussions border on fiction, sorry - when the owner of that kennel needs to tell everyone over and over again that he is the only person ( in the entire world, apparently ) to really train the "whole dog", I search for my wading boots. It gets pretty deep in there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Maybe a dumb question from a newbie... I havn't had a chance to see any of the newer protection sports, only a few schutzhund and police dog trials. Do all of these new sports (PSA...) still require dogs to perform searches and such?

Obviously GSD's and Mals dominate the dog world because, not only will they engage someone, but will also track and search. Any of the mastiff breeds would be hard pressed to do this. Do you think that if a venue existed that only tested a dog's ability to protect the handler in close quarters, it would even out the playing field at all?

Simon,
Nope. Mal's dominate the reality based protection sports without fail. They are simply a better dog breed in regards to protection ( as are GSD's ) than any of the Mastiff based dogs.
And I'm all for that people should work and enjoy the breed of dog that they like - I think that's great, but I'll draw the line when those folks start making claims about the superiority of the Mastiff based breeds when the facts prove conclusively otherwise.

Here's a link to the rule page of American Street Ring, so you can see what's required for a dog to title in that sport.
http://www.americanstreetring.org/rules.htm
For me, it's a lot more fun then SchH, and a better test of a dog's real ability to protect you. But it's still a sport, needless to say.

Will,,, come on dude..

Out of all the presa you worked with, were any from Red Star? I seriously doubt that you are going to make any of these dogs retreat. All presa canarios are not created equal. Red Star doesn’t breed dogs just to make a quick buck. They really care about preserving and protecting the presa canario. These dogs are carefully matched to breed extremely fine, and healthy puppies. These are functional dogs with the ability to do PP work. This is why I am buying a presa from red star kennel and only Red Star. They believe that a functional presa should be kept at around 100 to 110lb not 130 or 150lbs. (bigger is not better). They invite you down to the kennel and show these dogs in action so you can see what your pup is getting in genetics. They have videos that show this work taking place. Will,,,, no one is telling me anything, I haven’t spoken to anyone at Red Star Kennel,. I am seeing this work on videos..


But maybe you are right, I am inexperience and maybe I don’t know what real PP work looks like. The last thing I want to do is get stuck with a dog that is not capable of doing what he was meant to do.. Will --- Is there a place I can go on the net and see what PP work looks like other then Red Star Kennel? I am from NYC, is there somewhere I can go that won’t require me to fly?

I don’t want to see pictures I want to see action

Thanks