i have 2 pups (7 mnths and 16 wks.). i've been using treats to train them the basic commands (sit, down, stay, come). they are even learning roll over. the treats seem to be working just fine. i do not use them all the time though.
is there something wrong with training with treats? i know too many treats can cause diarrhea. but, other than that i thought that was the correct way to train. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

There is NOTING wrong with using treats to train, especially puppies. Most people use hotdogs because the dog doesn't have to stop to chew the hotdog as much as it would for a biscut. You can use whatever the dog likes, freeze dried liver, cheese, etc.

Treats should be accounted for in the dogs daily intake. If the pups get the runs I would back off a bit.

Nope, yup & right!

2GSDS, There seams to be three schools of training that I have run into. There's the food training fanatics that will NEVER correct improper behavior with a leash correction or any other physical "abusive" correction (only depriving a dog of affection, treats and limiting a dogs freedom of movement). The other extreme is to NEVER give a dog treats and don't even try to train a pup until it's six months old. Then you train with traditional corrections and LOTS of love and praise. Then the third style is what I would catagorize as the Tom Rose style (IMO). This is a more balanced approach to training, utilizing food, love and corrections. I just want my dog from point A to point B as quickly as possible without creating a nervous piece of crap.
I have found food to create fast results but transitioning off of food while maintaining reliabilty and enthusiasm requires alot of patience, skill and TIME! One leash correction is worth ten pounds of hotdogs. One bad correction will take a thousand pounds of hotdogs to fix.

You are doing just fine, but at seven months you are getting into the "problem" time. The problems with using treats come after the basic command has been tought. When you start withholding the reward for more precise behavior, when you start to only reward on a random basis, when you decide to add distractions, when you begin to use corrections and how you do that, when, and if, you have also started using a ball/play/tug/whatever reward. See, it starts to get more complex.

When I say problem, I mean "lots of different methods, ideas, techniques. . ."

There is nothing wrong with using food, but to get to an acceptable level of control and precision (throw in there any other specifics you want) you will have to do more than just treat. How, or what, you do is the question.

gotcha! i completely understand what ya'll are saying. thanks for the info. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ed added this section due to a vast misconception on using food in obedience training. Some of the comments I have heard are:

-It’s cheating

-It diminishes the bond between dog and handler

-The dog’s drive will diminish when you start to wean the dog off of food

None of these could be further from the truth. Food can be a very effective tool if used correctly. A few of the benefits are:

-Increases the bond between you and your dog

-Increases drive when used intermittently

-Effective when you want to reward quickly and then immediately continue the behavior

-Effective on dogs that are too distracted by a ball (prey item)

-Reduces the stress that obedience can bring

-To increase or decrease speed on a track

-Effective during the learning phase of a behavior (especially with puppies)

I can go on and on but I think this is good enough to fuel some discussion on the topic.

so, am i understanding this right...
it is ok to use food as a motivation method during the learning phase, but then you should back off of the food and teach with the correction phase once the dog understands what is expected of him/her?
it sounds good to me.
the only thing i don't understand is how can it damage the bond between owner and dog? the dog knows you supply the treats....oh wait is it because then the dog won't listen to you unless you have a treat...kinda like NO RESPECT ?????

also, i've been working on the correction phase with a choke collar so, i'm not having to use as many treats. i know most of you guys like prongs for training, but are chokers ok to use? should i post this in a different area?

You answered your own question but I do want you to clarify this statement:

"i've been working on the correction phase with a choke collar so, i'm not having to use as many treats"

I'm going to jump in here, excuse me, Vince. I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts to the general flow of ideas here. I think that when you're first learning dog training, you want to find some sort of standardized formula to follow, a+b=c. Even though I've had companion dogs for years and have always done my own obedience training, I am a beginner in the world of working dogs. But, something that I have figured out is that dog training is not linear, it is fluid and intuitive, with a little bit of linear thinking thrown in. After all, you are teaching a living, thinking creature, not operating a computer or a machine. I don't believe in sticking to some rigid formula, rather, I favor listenting to what my dogs are telling me through my observations of them.

I will also venture that you will only frustrate yourself if you are looking for a standard formula to follow. You can only get a general direction to go in; the specifics are dependent upon you and your dog.

Sorry to interrupt, just wanted to throw that in. I'm also curious to know what is meant by the statement in question. I would tend to think that 2gsds shouldn't be in the "correction phase" yet, with either pup. Clarification would be good.